Cold Steel 1917 Frontier Bowie... forged or milled barstock?

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Aug 4, 2013
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Now that they have been out for a couple of years, what do you guys think? I know they are made by Windlass Steelcrafts in India, and most, if not all of their own branded bowies are hand forged. What do you guys think about the CS 1917 Bowie, forged or milled from barstock?


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I still think it was hand forged. As you say, other Windlass-made knives are hand forged, so I don't see why they would have done anything different with this. And with numerous slight hammer mark imperfections all over the blade and the virtual certainty that the guard was hand forged, this all leads to my conclusion that the whole thing is hand forged. I'm about 95% sure.
 
Sometimes I think it's a hand forged item, mostly because that is what Windlass Steelcrafts is known to do with most of their products... Then, other times, I wonder if Cold Steel has these made using milling from barstock method. I have said this before, CS would not be hurt by advertising them as hand forged (if they are) because it would add to the whole old school feeling these knives already have. Also, neither the CS 2016 catalog, nor their current website, has changed the 1055 steel specification (them now supposedly being made of 1085 steel). Maybe when they do an update on the knife's info, they could add the "hand forged" description to it (if indeed they are). Again, if anything, customers knowing these are hand forged, would only add a coolness factor to them. Hand forged and at Cold Steel's current pricing for these knives, an unbeatable value! I mean, same exact knife, but hand forged in the USA... it would likely cost many hundreds of dollars.
 
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Does Windlass even have the manufacturing capability to perform milling? I know their facilities have progressed over the years, but I didn't think they were ever set up for mass production.

-Steve
 
Very good question. I do believe they purchased Marto of Spain, so broke they are not. But, don't know if they have upped their abilities in their India location.

With it being pretty certain that Cold Steel contracts Windlass Steelcrafts in India to produce these 1917 Frontier Bowies, I have pasted the following description about their forging methods (as written and explained by Windlass Steelcrafts)...

Windlass Steelcrafts Manufacturing:
The repeated heating, hammering, cooling relieves the stress of the molecular structure of the steel, which makes a hand forged sword far superior to swords made by the stock removal method

Once a sword or a knife is selected after careful research both historically and for accuracy, by our team of historians and designers, the master parts are made by the most skilled craftsmen, and the item is handed over to the various teams.

Based on the design, cross section, and other attributes of the blade, the engineering department selects the most appropriate grade of steel based on its carbon content ranging from 1065 to 1095. The master blacksmiths then decide the size of the billet that has to be forged into a sword or a knife. Forging of the blade is not only the most time consuming process, it also requires great skill of the master smith, who works with his two assistant workers. These assistant workers learn the art of forging under the careful eye of the master, and after years of labour graduate to being smiths themselves. The billet is heated in an open hearth charcoal furnace, and the shape, cross section, length and the distal temper are hammered out. This is achieved by heating and hammering the billet/blade several times over. The master smith uses his hammer to point at the spot where his assistants need to beat with their bigger hammers, and the beat becomes a fine rhythm. All this while proper care and attention is taken not to overheat the blade at any given time, so as to prevent crystallization. The repeated heating, hammering, cooling relieves the stress of the molecular structure of the steel, which makes a hand forged sword far superior to swords made by the stock removal method employed by many modern sword makers. This art of forging has been kept alive at our factory, where the master smith passes on his knowledge and expertise to his understudies.

Once the shape of the blade is hammered out, and inspection is carried out by our QC personnel, the blade is sent to the Grinding and polishing section. Highly skilled grinders then start on the forged blades using different grits of stone and belt grinders. Any imperfections from the forge are eliminated and the cross section and distal are perfected, by hand. Inspection is carried out at every step of the process. The ground blade is now ready for an initial polish, once again by highly skilled polishers.

The blade is now ready for the most vital process of heat treatment, involving the twin process of hardening and tempering, which is done under the careful eye of a metallurgist, and skilled blacksmiths, using state of the art, temperature controlled electric furnaces, which have been developed exclusively for us after years of research, by internationally known furnace company. Depending on the length, cross section and the steel employed in the blade, it is heated to a certain degree and hardened by quenching it in temperature controlled oil, that is constantly running through cooling pipes. Proper measures are taken by employing specially made jigs to prevent warpage. The hardening process puts a lot of stress on the blade and it is ready for the tempering or stress relieving process, which is again carried out in a specially designed furnace, and the blades are kept at constant but lower temperatures than the hardening furnace, for a period of 45 minutes to an hour. Once the tempering process is complete, there is a window of 10 to 15 minutes, when blacksmiths take out warpage, if any, using jigs and soft metal hammers. This is a very vital process.

The resulting hardness of the blade is then checked to ensure it is between, 48 to 52 Rockwell. The blades are also checked for flex and made sure they return to true after bent over 5 inches. Rockwell hardness of a blade is a relative term, the most important aspect is that the blade should not be too hard so as to become brittle and not too soft to bend and stay bent. Improper heat treatment will make the best steel perform poorly.

The blade is now ready for final polish by hand and after final inspection is sent to the assembly section. During the time the blade is going through the process, parts are being made using a combination of methods, lost wax, sand casting or fabrication. Our tool room is fully equipped with several lathes, milling machines, shapers, EDM and wire cutting EDM machines to make the dies and moulds in-house. The parts are then cleaned with the help of pneumatic tools, polished by hand or specially designed proprietary machines, and are then sent for lacquer coating by electro-phoretic Swiss process. A variety of finishes can be given to the parts or the sword in this process, and in the most modern electro-plating shop equipped with all kinds of plating including 24K gold and silver. Grips, handles, and other parts of the sword are made in the wood department. The wood is first seasoned in European made Kiln, and services of highly skilled wood workers are employed coupled with the accuracy of numerous machines specially imported from the U.S., Italy and Taiwan. Similarly our leather department is fully equipped with presses, cutters, sewing machines, splitting machines (including Tippman from USA), and other Italian and Indian made machines. However, to maintain the authenticity of our historical pieces we rely on skilled leather craftsmen to hand sew each and every scabbard or grip. Every aspect from the selection of wood, leather and other raw material to the crafting of the historic piece is carefully carried out under the watchful eye of knowledgeable engineers and experienced supervisors.

The resulting parts and the blades are then assembled by hand by experienced workers, and inspected before being sent to the packing department, where the swords are married to their sheaths and a last round of inspection is carried out before the packaging.

This above is just an overview of the manufacturing process, involving several steps and painstaking work. Due to our commitment to constantly improve on the quality, provide better and cleaner work environment to our workforce of over 500 people, Windlass Steelcrafts has been awarded numerous awards by the Indian Government, and is fully approved by the International Standards Organisation, ISO-9002, British Ministry of Defence, United States Marine Corps, and several other countries around the world.

- Windlass Steelcrafts
 
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Here is a link to a Windlass Steelcrafts video explaining their forging process of swords and knives...

https://youtu.be/4xLWzLiFVPI

Of course this is a marketing video for their wares, but I see nothing in it that would seem unbelievable, and actually, imo, it simply shows how non state of the art Windlass really is in India. The biggest asset Windlass has is cheap labor, and so it is totally understandable why forging blades by hand is a cost effective method for them, where it would be a cost prohibitive method for a manufacturer in a country like ours (USA). Neat stuff to watch. I am glad some of this still exists in the world, and that Cold Steel is tapping into it to offer us such items as their Cold Steel 1917 series swords and knives 👍

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I have pasted the following description about their forging methods (as written and explained by Windlass Steelcrafts)...

Windlass Steelcrafts Manufacturing:
The repeated heating, hammering, cooling relieves the stress of the molecular structure of the steel, which makes a hand forged sword far superior to swords made by the stock removal method

- Windlass Steelcrafts
This part of their website is pretty interesting to me. I've seen other threads where a lot of people get angry over a statement like this, claiming that with modern steels it makes no diff whether it's forged or stock removed. But I've also seen threads by knifemakers discussing how a whole batch of 5160 steel was improperly manufactured, which led to catastrophic failure. I agree with the blowhards that, theoretically and assuming everything is done correctly, that either method results in the exact same knife, but all the same, I like forged blades. As long as they're made by smiths who know what they're doing, I do think they're less likely to have catastrophic failure. So I hope the 1917 bowie is made by forging. I agree with you PKJ that having a forged knife is pretty awesome and I hope Windlass never converts to just stock removal.
 
Yeah, it being hand forged adds a huge nostalgic manufacturing touch to an already nostalgic looking knife. So many production knives labled as being "Bowie" style, are made using stainless steel, made from stamped out barstock, sometimes having synthetic handle materials, and just screaming modern made in oh so many ways. But, the Cold Steel 1917 breaks that ever so standard norm, and seems to really set a new standard for those seeking something with more true old school built in. Yes, CS definitely made it unique by adding some things that may not have been found in, let's say, an 1830's Bowie type knife. Things like the 1917 Bowie's blued steel blade, it's large and deep fuller, and screws attaching it's wood grip, are things not likely to be found on an 1800's Bowie. But, it does include a nostalgic Bowie blade profile, a rosewood handle, a carbon steel blade (some in 1055, some in 1085), and it likely being hand forged. In hand, these knives look and feel well made, but without that perfect look done by CNC machines and other modern technologies that oftentimes remove human hands on involvement. I now own many types of knives, and now from quite a few different production manufacturers, but somehow I am really drawn most to the nostalgic appearance of Cold Steel's 1917 Frontier Bowie. I currently have three specimens of this model gracing my home's decor... Yup, I love this Cold Steel design! 👍☺

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Forging does nothing magical to the steel.

A piece of good bar stock, made into a proper knife by stock removal. It is every bit as strong as a hand forged knife made out of the same stock.
 
For me it's not about comparing forging vs. milling from barstock for any possible structural difference between the two. For me it's the knowledge of knowing that an item was forged by hand for nostalgic reasons. Hand forging was the way oh so many Bowies were made back in the day... It simply adds a nostalgic touch, one that more modern methods seem to fail in capturing. It just gives this knife an added touch that is not as common in today's world of modern and higher tech manufacturing equipment.
An example of this can be seen with the differences between Victorinox (Swiss Army knives) vs. knives made by Great Eastern Cutlery or Queen. No doubt that Victorinox makes a very consistent quality product. But, when I watch the video on how they are made, the marvel of all that modern machinery does not stir me as much as watching a GEC video on how they make their pocket knives. The difference is the amount of hands on craftsmanship that the GEC or a Queen knife has in it... That is something that does stir me in a positive way. It's cool to see Windlass' video when their old forging by hand method meets with the modern world when they are placed in Windlass' heat treating and tempering ovens.
Sometimes just knowing that something has had more old school labor into making it, adds a coolness factor to the item for me... It's certainly a personal thing, and not all will care either way 👍☺

I have admired the Cold Steel Laredo and Natchez, and feel atleast one of those models will wind up in my collection, but their Frontier Bowie just fills my nostalgic senses better. I really like the fact that it's handle material (the rosewood) has little to nothing to do with the integrity of the knife. I mean, one could totally remove the wood handle, and still have a usable knife (although wrapping the tang with something would help a little). I hope some company will kick in and offer different handle grips for these Frontier Bowies, it would be so easy to pop on another to give them a different personal look. I mean, can't be much more simple... three scews off, handle slides off... Then, new handle slides on, three screws replaced... Wah-Lah, a whole new look 👍

The method of tang construction for this model, makes them great canvas for those so inclined to perform some customization work on them. Here is one done by one of Cold Steel's employees...

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And here is a picture of someone that used his 1917 Frontier Bowie for a Wild Boar hunt...

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Forging does nothing magical to the steel.

A piece of good bar stock, made into a proper knife by stock removal. It is every bit as strong as a hand forged knife made out of the same stock.

Yeah, like I said in post # 8, assuming that the maker is working with good steel, the stock removal should result in the same blade as forging. That assumption is the weak part, of course. Because sometimes it is not true. Here is a discussion I saw on another forum (hope the link works) See posts 3 through 5 in the link http://http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?18157-6150-steel-anyone. Makers are talking about how 5160, ATS-34 and 1095 batches from factories are inconsistent and some even have inclusions. Wow! Reading that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in modern steel factories! On the other hand, if those defective batches were beaten and forged the old way, I would think those inclusions would be beaten out of them, no? Maybe, maybe not, but you have to think there is some benefit to forging, otherwise why would good old Bill Bagwell bang away with his hammer at his anvil all day.
 
F... That is something that does stir me in a positive way. It's cool to see Windlass' video when their old forging by hand method meets with the modern world when they are placed in Windlass' heat treating and tempering ovens.
Sometimes just knowing that something has had more old school labor into making it, adds a coolness factor to the item for me... It's certainly a personal thing, and not all will care either way ��☺

I feel the same, When I heft my virtually unbreakable, Hand forged Himalayan Imports Khukuri. and picture this barefoot Kami squatting in the dirt in Nepal, carefully hammering it into shape. Can't get that from an assembly line. <G>
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/assets/images/kami16.jpg
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/assets/images/kami8.jpg
 
I was glancing at Cold Steel's updated website today, and while they still do not mention if the 1917 Frontier Bowie is a forged or milled from steel stock knife, they have updated the steel info as now being 1085 (rather than the 1055). Actually, the description says 1085, but clicking onto the "details", it has the steel as being 1090. So, they are now officially listed as 1085 or 1090... one of those grades of carbon steel, but no longer the 1055.
 
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Well, I guess I should have stated that Cold Steel mentioned their plans to switch to 1085 for their 1917 Frontier Bowie some time ago. The change has been in place for awhile now, but it's only now that they have that information on their website. There may be some 1055 models still left in certain dealer inventories, but there is no definite tell tale way of knowing whether a specimen is made with 1055 or 1085 steel, and that is because the blades are not marked with any info. Best bet for someone wanting to get a 1085 version, would be to get their knife from a business that has a high turn over of merchandise, this way it is more likely that the 1055 versions have long been sold out and the 1085 versions will be what's in stock.
My first 1917 Frontier Bowie was purchased early in Cold Steel's offering of them and came with their British Proof test certificate. That one is certainly a 1055 version. My last two came without that certificate, and being more recent purchases, likely make them 1085 specimens.
The following pic shows two of my personal specimens, the bottom one being a definite 1055 steel version (based on how early on I purchased it). It came with a Cold Steel hangtag and British Proof Test certificate. The top one is very likely a 1085 version, also based on it being a later purchase. It came with no hangtag or the British Proof Test certificate. Both came in the same standard cardboard box.

I have read many reviews about the early 1055 version Frontiers having their cross guards more brownish in their bluing than their blades. Mine shows this too. I am guessing that the guards on these knives are of a different steel than the 1055 used for making the blades. That may explain why the guards are not blue/black like the blades. In any case, the guards with this brownish look are not made of a darkened brass, as some folks have suggested... They are steel guards. As for my two more recent specimens, their guards do match the same blue/black look of the blades. These are both likely the 1085 steel blade versions, and maybe the steel of the guards are more in line with being like the steel for the blades, and hence may explain the bluing matching (blade and guard). I like the look of both, with my 1055 Frontier's more brownish guard look only adding to the rustic look of the knife in general (atleast in my eyes).


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By the way, if anyone reading this post is intrigued by the Bowie knives and would like to know more about them, this video shows some awesome vintage specimens. It covers a bit of Bowie knife history to boot &#128077;&#9786;


https://youtu.be/OgDLPTAGw-k
 
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I have a number of Cold Steel fixed blades, including a 3V Master Tanto and O-1 Natchez, but I'll still probably get the 1917 eventually. It is a very cool yuge knife.
 
Yeah, it seems their Natchez is their rendition of a Bowie made to the high evolvement and refinement that modern machinery/technology can offer. Then there's their 1917 Frontier Bowie, a knife having alot of yesteryear methods behind it's manufacturing, and including some of the less refinement that goes along with those methods. They are the two big daddys of the Cold Steel Bowie line (I believe the Frontier Bowie actually has a slightly bit larger blade than the Natchez). Both are beautiful in their respective non custom/production made catagories &#128077;
 
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Well the Natchez to me is still considered a classic design with its coffin handle, hidden tang and brass guards. Only the finish is modern.

Have anyone put the 1917 bowie to use? How does the edge hold up? I am thinking of modding mine when I get hold of one. Mainly to reduce the weight by reducing the guard, drilling holes in the rear part of the tang. I may also grind down the primary bevel to a shallower angle to increase cutting efficiency.
 
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