Cold Steel, 420 J2... Debunking the myth.

Orion

Orion

Joined
Oct 4, 1998
Messages
529
Just got one of those new Cold Steel Black Bear Classic copies (OSS model) with the kraton handle and the 420 J2 stainless blade. I got this knife as a goof just to test it and see if all the negative hype about 420 J2 was true. I have a good handful of United models all made of J2 but never really used any of them. CS claims their J2 is "sub-zero quenched" so exactly how different it is from United's J2 is still unknown and no comparisons are meant to be made. This review is for CS only.
First of all, the product- This knife is a copy of the CS Black Bear Classic sub-hilt fighter. The main differences are the steel, the handle (kraton) and the sheath (concealex as opposed to leather). I think the OSS may be a tad smaller in OA dimensions, also. The handle is completely kraton including the sub-hilt which is simply molded into the shape. If you like kraton handles, this is OK but if you are not a fan of rubber handles, don't bother. Don't know the actual tang configuration because I wasn't going to cut off the handle, but I suspect it's a rat tail type like their other models of this style. The sheath is concealex and looks kind of like a "toy"... more plastic-like than the quality of kydex, but a "decent" sheath, nonetheless. As mentioned, the blade is "sub-zero quenched" 420 J2 stainless steel with no coating. It is a clip point style blade but is completely sharpened all around, even on the spine, which renders it almost "dagger-like". This knife is extremely light and well balanced at the choil. It feels excellent as a fighting bowie and other than the structural flaws of the kraton guard it would probably perform quite well in a blade to blade confrontation. It is very "fast" in the hand and I have always been a fan of the sub-hilt in a fighter.
I wanted to see if this steel sucked as bad as everyone believes so I took it to the test. First I cut up some cardboard boxes that were left from the new entertainment center we just bought!! ;-) After a few large boxes (including some staple collisions!) there was no change at all in the blade, not even chipping from the staples. Blade still shaved. Then I went to do some chopping. Keep in mind this knife was not meant for chopping and the handle shape is extremely uncomfortable, especially when chopping with the spine side (I did this to preserve the other edge) which is what I did. The chopping was not to evaluate the knife as a chopper, but to test the steel and the edge. I found a 4" sweetgum sapling. I first limbed it around the bottom, then chopped it down, then limbed it all the way up, then chopped it into about 4 or 5 pieces. Granted, this took a LOT of work because like I said... this knife is EXTREMELY light and not blade heavy at all and is definitely NOT a chopper! Anyway, the knife was coated in sap and it was raining so I headed back in to clean it up and assess the damage. On the way, I passed my knife throwing target so I thought, "What the hell?". I was afraid to throw by the blade because it was double edged and VERY sharp and the handle, especially having a sub-hilt, was not the best for a throwing knife. At any rate, I was able to throw and stick it maybe 12 times out of 15 using 1 full rotation from about 16 feet. Not bad.... The only problem was that on one throw, it over-rotated slightly and the extreme tip bent over. Hardly noticable by the naked eye, but you could feel it if you ran your finger across it. After cleaning the knife up I could see some flattening on the chopping edge. No denting, rolling or chipping. A few swipes on the steel and it was as good as new!!! I was even able to fix the tip on the steel. Not only was I not disappointed in the performance, I was actually amazed!!!
I'm sure Cliff Stamp could destroy this knife, but for the record, it held up very well. This would be a good general purpose knife (not a great chopper, but will in a pinch) and for the price is an excellent beater. I didn't pry with it or anything so it still has some testing coming but I mainly wanted to test edge retention, which it passed quite nicely. Edge retention is the main gripe I hear about J2...
Anyway, Take it for what its's worth....I may even get the other 2 models in this new line.

Peace-
Cam
 
Oooops.... Sorry, this was supposed to go in the Reviews forum...

Cam
 
Maybe a moderator can move this to the Reviews forum...

Anyway...
Cougar Allen has informed me that it is not 420 J2, but in fact, 420 HC. This led me to check the specs in the catalog. The catalog states merely "420 sub-zero quench" so Mr. Allen may be right. As far as the differences between the J2 and the HC, I am not aware. Maybe someone with some knowledge can help me out. I know that regardless of the J2 or HC, many BF members were speculating about CS's use of 420 and that was the impetus of my testing. If I am correct, it was commonly considered that 420, in any shape, form or fashion, was inferior.

In the catalog it also states that the sheath is made of "Secure-Ex" and not Concealex as previously stated.

Again, take it for what it's worth....

Cam
 
420HC has a higher carbon content than 420J2 -- that's what the HC stands for, High Carbon -- but it's still lower in carbon than premium knife steels. (Beware of similar names for steels, though -- Crucible 420V is very different.)

The industry is moving from 440A to cryo-treated 420HC for low-buck stainless knives to cut costs. 420HC is easier to work in the annealed state than 440A, and after cryo treatment it's claimed to give similar performance. My preliminary investigations tend to confirm that, but I haven't done a really rigorous comparison yet.

Your experiment showed you it doesn't perform like age-hardened cheese ... next if you try comparing it to a 420J2 knife and a knife made of any premium knife steel, I think you'll find the edge-holding of your new knife is much better than the cheap junk but much less than the good stuff. If you have a 440A knife available you might add that to the comparison, too....

When you compare edge-holding of different knives made of different premium steels other factors tend to overpower the steels -- edge angle and primary grind angle and the thickness of the blade make a great deal of difference, not to mention heat-treat. That is less of a problem when comparing the low-buck steels because there's more difference between them. Regardless of blade geometry, if you sharpen several knives yourself to the same angle and using the same final polish, you will find very noticeable differences between 420J2, cryo-treated 420HC, and 1095.

Sub-hilt fighters are designed for hammer grip knife fighting and especially when double-edged aren't good for much else.... Edge-holding is not a major concern in knife fighting; even if you had an endless succession of attackers you would collapse from fatigue before your knife gets too dull.


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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
 
Cougar says-"The industry is moving from 440A to cryo-treated 420HC for low-buck stainless knives to cut costs. 420HC is easier to work in the annealed state than 440A, and after cryo treatment it's claimed to give similar performance. My preliminary investigations tend to confirm that, but I haven't done a really rigorous comparison yet."


Well, I must disagree!!

The industry is moving to 420HC for various reasons:
1)440A is no longer available in coil form which is used by most of the larger factories, 420HC is.
2)420HC will actually outperform 440A WITHOUT the cryo quench, and acts like 440B after the cryo.
 
I have done many chopping/edge retention tests with numerous blades (almost all the blades were designed to chop, though) and this 420 HC stuff seems to hold an edge as well as 1095 or even CarbonV for that matter. I don't think I have anything in 440A.
As far as your description, other than the rubber handle, I would label this a good buy in the sub-hilt fighter category. Fits the description nicely.
While the edge retention may prove to be inferior to further testing, I was amazed at its initial performance due to public opinion. I had expected the knife to just break apart in my hand. My judgement could be clouded by my expections... my initial opinion could just be that "Hey!! it didn't fall apart so it isn't all that bad!". I will do more testing and keep posting.

Thanks-
Cam
 
Thank you for the correction, Anthony.

Does anybody know who's making Cold Steel's new 420HC line? I suspect Camillus, but that's only a suspicion.

Speaking of suspicions, there seems to be a lot of suspicion of 420HC on the forums. I think what we need is a direct comparison with 440A -- I'm going to try to find some time to cut up cardboard today, or soon at least. Everybody else who has one of the new cryo-treated 420HC knives -- a Camillus Arclite or EDC, any of the new Cold Steel line (what else? Is Buck using cryo?) -- do you have a 440A or 440B or AUS8 or similar knife on hand that's at all similar in blade geometry? The more of us who can do some side-by-side testing the better.

These knives are getting into the hands of knife knuts now. We don't have to go on assuming 420HC can't be much better than 420J2 and we don't have to blindly accept everything the industry tells us either -- we can find out for ourselves.


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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orion:
I was amazed at its initial performance due to public opinion. I had expected the knife to just break apart in my hand.
Thanks-
Cam</font>
Click to expand...

Heh. See, you can't believe us at all!

Actually, though, these lower-carbon steels are usually very tough, so you wouldn't really expect them to break apart. They're weak, so I would expect them to indent and bend more easily. I also expect them to lose an edge much more quickly from slicing and cutting jobs. But for something like a chopping, a soft, lower-carbon blade shouldn't necessarily be breaking and chipping if it's heat-treated with any care at all.

Joe

 
Cougar-
I have a few blades in AUS8. The one I use the most is the Junglee Military Bolo. It is designed to chop (more or less) and as a chopper it is heads above the CS OSS but as far as edge retention, I think the 420 HC is slightly better...
How does AUS8 compare technically to the 420 HC?

Thanks-
Cam
 
440A, 420HC, 12C27, 440B, AUS-8... they differ minimally given equally good HT.
440 A and B tend to be a tad better in edgeholding.
12C27 tends to be tougher and better corrosion resistant (I prefer this steel)
420HC is an economical version of the harder to produce 440 series or 12C27, and defeniteley the least of the series. Also the cheapest i suspect.
The Aus series my have an advantage here, because they add some vanadium..

420J2 is not designed for edgeholding, but for corrosionresistance. Actually, it cuts very bad. It was deisgned for tough things in food-preparing machines.

1095 is an unfair comparison. Give me a bar of 1095 and I'll make a knife that will easily outcut ATS-34. Comparing 420HC to 1095 is saying the 1095 doesn't have a good HT. And then there is corrosion resistance and toughness off course.

Basic rule: any of these steels except 420J2 will perform quit good to excellent in their own level of performance, if HT is done right!

I don't understand why Coldsteel switched to 420HC.. it is just as expensive to HT as AUS-8, the steel itself may be a little bit cheaper but not enough to justify the price difference. Ah hell..never liked coldsteel anyway ... too much hype and talk for me.

greetz, bart.

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"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !
You can E-mail me at bart.weijs@student.kuleuven.ac.be any
time....guaranteed reply !


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Joe Talmadge:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But for something like a chopping, a soft, lower-carbon blade shouldn't necessarily be breaking and chipping if it's heat-treated with any care at all.</font>
Click to expand...

What you do tend to see in failures are distortions in the primary grind. I have used several low class large blades (420 class) and they will all take quarter size semicircular bends near the edge from hard contacts off of knots. Usually if your follow through is tight you will see no damage (unless the grind is really thin, which it never is on such blades), but on a bad swing the lateral impact will damage the blade. The low strength and compression resistance also limits the geometry unless you just want to use it for really light work. I have not used however a 420 class blade from a quality manufacturer, generally because at that price there are directly better knives available.

-Cliff
 
FWIW, I'm certain I read somewhere that Darrel Ralph was very loath to use 420HC on the Camillus EDC, until Camillus showed him what it can do. He then agreed it was an okay steel for the EDC.

Of course, I have an active fantasy and dream life, and may only have imagined it.

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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
Cougar:

It isn't hard to know where each Cold Steel knife is made. If it uses Carbon V steel, it's made by Camillus. If it has a T on the end of the model number (19BT as an example) it is made in Taiwan. Otherwise, it's Japanese.



------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
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