Cold Steel OSS Carbon V, who made them? And when?

[PsychoSword]

I've seen two variations of these over the years. One with a blade SLIGHTLY wider than the tang, and one with the same diameter as the tang. I'm assuming they were made by two different manufacturers. Maybe United Cutlery and Camillus? And if my guess is correct, who made which? Or were they made by the same manufacturer, but in separate runs and to different specs? They seem to all come in the same blue boxes. Any knowledge on the subject would be greatly appreciated!

 

[KenHash]

I've seen two variations of these over the years. One with a blade SLIGHTLY wider than the tang, and one with the same diameter as the tang. I'm assuming they were made by two different manufacturers. Maybe United Cutlery and Camillus? And if my guess is correct, who made which? Or were they made by the same manufacturer, but in separate runs and to different specs? They seem to all come in the same blue boxes. Any knowledge on the subject would be greatly appreciated!

I assume you mean the ricasso, not the tang. I believe the OSS has a stick tang running through the center of the kraton handle to the end by te lanyard hole.
I can not be of much help because (1) I was under the impression that Camillus was Cold Steel's only Carbon V OEM maker. (Aside from Buck early on).
And (2) every OSS I have seen had a blade width the same as the ricasso. Perhaps you could post a picture of what you are talking about?
If there are such blade-wider-than-ricasso OSS models, my first guess would be simply a factory variance issue.

 

[PsychoSword]

Yes, I meant the ricasso. Thanks for the clarification. I took some photos. I have three of each, 3 wider than ricasso and 3 same width, so it can't be just a fluke, something was going on here, but I'm trying to figure out what since forever. All in blue boxes.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I'm pretty sure all Carbon V knives were made by Camillus.

There were some rumors in the late 1990s about them being made by Ontario. At the time Ontario's Spec Plus line was larger than it is now and had a few tantos which could compete with the Recon Tanto, and some considered them a less expensive option.

I'm not sure United even manufactures knives and while they might have some good knives now (I don't know, I just haven't been looking at all the brands in the past decade and a half) back in the 1990s and early 2000s they were generally considered bad knives such as the type you'd get from BudK or expensive but nonfunctional movie replicas. Most of this came from people's experience using their dull 420J2 knives, not from internet discussions.

As to differences in blade shape, they change the designs over time. The Secure-Ex sheath won't fit the Carbon V Recon Tanto due to the shape being different. The Carbon V Recon Tanto has a larger ricasso than the SK5 version.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

Another possibility is that one could be a factory second. Not all factory seconds have a "2" marked on the handle.

 

[PsychoSword]

Another possibility is that one could be a factory second. Not all factory seconds have a "2" marked on the handle.

Thanks, I could understand them being a factory second if I had not gotten them over the years from many different sources and none of them have a 2 in the handle. And they all came in the box. I don't remember a lot of factory seconds I've owned over the years coming in boxes. Ontario Knives would be an interesting mix. But then I would wonder who made which knives.

 

[KenHash]

Yes, I meant the ricasso. Thanks for the clarification. I took some photos. I have three of each, 3 wider than ricasso and 3 same width, so it can't be just a fluke, something was going on here, but I'm trying to figure out what since forever. All in blue boxes.

Thank you for the photos. And I see the slight difference in width. With that degree of difference and no others that I can see, I would stand by y guess that it;s just a factory variance. Unless someone comes up with a definitive answer of course.

 

[PsychoSword]

Thank you for the photos. And I see the slight difference in width. With that degree of difference and no others that I can see, I would stand by y guess that it;s just a factory variance. Unless someone comes up with a definitive answer of course.

Yea I was thinking maybe just different production runs, the slimmer on one run, the wider on the other run or vice versa, since I have 3 obvious examples of each. But the Ontario Knives angle is interesting.

 

[PsychoSword]

I'm not sure United even manufactures knives and while they might have some good knives now (I don't know, I just haven't been looking at all the brands in the past decade and a half) back in the 1990s and early 2000s they were generally considered bad knives such as the type you'd get from BudK or expensive but nonfunctional movie replicas. Most of this came from people's experience using their dull 420J2 knives, not from internet discussions.

I have a new United Cutlery Black Dragon Tanto in the box that appears to be what the Cold Steel 6" tanto was patterned after. Doesn't seem to be a movie prop. But I'm sure it's typical 80's or early 90's blade steel quality.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

That is a copy of the Cold Steel Tanto, not the other way around.

It is not even the first copy of the Cold Steel Tanto, that would be the Taylor-Seto MCR-11. I got one back in 1985 when I was 13 long before I could afford a Cold Steel Tanto.

The Taylor-Seto series had cast aluminum handles but one catalog I had sold a rubber handled version, though that was the only place I saw it. Later the United version was on the market. It is possible that catalog (a martial arts rather than knife catalog) sold the United version as the rubber handled version of the Taylor-Seto tanto.

 

[PsychoSword]

That is a copy of the Cold Steel Tanto, not the other way around.

It is not even the first copy of the Cold Steel Tanto, that would be the Taylor-Seto MCR-11. I got one back in 1985 when I was 13 long before I could afford a Cold Steel Tanto.

The Taylor-Seto series had cast aluminum handles but one catalog I had sold a rubber handled version, though that was the only place I saw it. Later the United version was on the market. It is possible that catalog (a martial arts rather than knife catalog) sold the United version as the rubber handled version of the Taylor-Seto tanto.

Oh interesting. Yea that makes sense. I think this might be it. Rubber handles, brass. The blade is pretty sharp up to the tanto point, after that, not as much.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I just did a search for the Taylor-Seto MCR-11. Taylor-Seto did make a rubber handled version and it is closer to the CS Tanto than the United is.

The TS was made in Japan from 440C and the United in that pic is made in Taiwan from 440, so that could be from before they made almost everything in 420J2.

My search also showed a stag handled guardless version.

The only versions of the TS I saw in person were the all black, the camo handle and black blade, the black and white speckled handle with a satin blade with a sawback (for "survival" lol) and the mini-tanto. Mine were a black tanto and camo handled mini-tanto. These had Cold Steel style sheaths but made of thinner leather and folded on one side.

I think these went out of production in the late 1980s.

Taylor still makes a version of the mini-tanto but with a strangely-shaped blade.

 

[jux t]

Am I misremembering or did Western churn out some Carbon V blades as well? Camillus, Ontario and Western produced Carbon V blades I thought, but definitely not United.

 

[jlauffer]

Had heard Western did some Carbon V, but they were owned by Camillus so certainly plausible. Hadn't heard about Ontario making any.

 

[jux t]

Had heard Western did some Carbon V, but they were owned by Camillus so certainly plausible. Hadn't heard about Ontario making any.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking Ontario may have made the Red River knives but that must have been an assumption.

Edit: I still think Ontario may have made the Red River series

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I'm pretty sure all Carbon V was made by Camillus and it is the same steel Kabar uses under the label "1095 Cro-Van."

I would also make sense that the belief "Carbon V" was just a term CS used for whatever carbon steel they were using was just a rumor, since they stopped using it when Camillus went under. If it were true they'd just call SK5 "Carbon V."

 

[jlauffer]

I'm pretty sure all Carbon V was made by Camillus and it is the same steel Kabar uses under the label "1095 Cro-Van."

I would also make sense that the belief "Carbon V" was just a term CS used for whatever carbon steel they were using was just a rumor, since they stopped using it when Camillus went under. If it were true they'd just call SK5 "Carbon V."

Some Carbon V history:

Carbon V Steel vs 1095 Steel?

:confused: Hey guys, maybe you can help? I am not that good with telling the difference between all grades of steel. As such, does anyone know the difference between the Cold Steel Carbon V steel and a 1095 steel? If so, is one better than the other? Thanks!

www.bladeforums.com

 

[The Whip]

According to fellow BF member Paul Tsujimoto (who is in a position to know and cites his sources), the sequence of Cold Steel's American manufacturers was:

Buck --> Western --> Alcas --> Ontario --> Camillus

This timeline appears in Paul's post #30 in the Mini History of Cold Steel SRK and Recon Tanto thread. While Mr. Tsujimoto describes that supply progression as sequential, I'm fairly certain there was production overlap. You don't succeed in business by having a single source of supply. Plus, it takes time to have a manufacturer tool up to create your designs, even more so in those pre-CAD days. A single-source manufacturer going out of business (e.g., Western) would have meant many months of no product for Cold Steel. I have to believe Lynn was shopping multiple suppliers over the years, particularly given his early bad experiences with Buck and the closing of Western.

As to which manufacturer(s) made the Carbon V OSS, I'm afraid that, absent Lynn joining our ranks to enlighten us, no one can answer that question. Can you determine if there are any differences in the tang stamps? That would be more telling than grind variations.


-Steve