Cold Steel Steels

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panama

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May 10, 2007
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Can I get some non-technical help as to whether or not these steels are any good.
The cold steel AUS 8 and the San Mai they are currently using.
My concerns are that of a self defense knife. It seems cold steel keeps changing steels and I am afraid they are using junkier steels to make the molds last longer. I many years ago had a United Cutlery knife I dropped on a hard floor and it broke! So much for them. Do these steels last if dropped, banged into things etc. I know they will hold an edge. Any help appreciated but I am not an engineer or a physicist please. Thanks much.
 
Yeah, Cold Steel uses good steel and they seems to heat treat it just right, though there are exceptions with every manufacturer. Their San Mai steels are a gimmack, though as a knife blade is only as good as the best steel that makes it up. And in the case of the San Mai steels, the protected (core) steel is either AUS8 or VG-1. In short, you're better off spending your money on a real premium steel. Spending a few hundred dollars on AUS8 or VG-1, laminated by 420, just doesn't make sense. Either steel holds up just fine without the 420 slabs.

But I like many of the Cold Steel's knives. They're a good value and they're strong and dependable. And by and large they're improving their steels, except in the cases where they've gone from Carbon V to AUS8A, but that wasn't their fault (their Carbon V source dried up.)
 
Cold Steel has added a few new steels to their array recently; SK-5 carbon and Krupp 4116 Stainless. I think that both steels have yet to prove themselves in the real world; I know the SK-5 has been getting some very favorable reviews, but if the 4116 is like all the other economy steels out there, then it's probably economical and nothing else.

As for AUS8 and San Mai III, there's a reason that they've been around for so long; they do in fact work.

AUS8 is a premium steel, used by many reputable manufacturers and suitable for hard use in my experience. It's not often seen in custom knives, but commercially it's a very commonly used steel, most recurrent in average-value tactical folders. (By average value I mean a knife expensive enough that you'd never buy it on a whim, yet affordable enough that you don't need long-term financial planning.) It's been used in its fair shair of iconic knives, like the SOG Bowies or the production version of the Carson M16. It has reasonably good edge retention and is comparatively easy to resharpen. My M16-EDC in AUS8 saw some heavy, daily use on cardboard, rubber, and landscaping tarp, and it would still shave for a good two or three days. When it was only seeing light use, every so often opening envelopes, plastic packaging, etc., the edge saw total neglect for a month or two on end, and it was still a usable knife.

I have no experience with San Mai knives. A San Mai ('three layers') blade has both a core and a shell, both made of different kinds of steel. The core, which only shows itself at the edge, is usually a high-carbon steel; it's very very hard and so takes a brilliant edge, but consequently it's more brittle and vulnerable to rust. So it's laminated in a shell of softer, tougher high-chrome stainless to offset the brittleness and provide better rust resistance. The laminate shell is usually 420J2 or something similar. This is another steel that shows up on the 'average tactical folder' - usually in the handle. The core is different depending on the maker; in the case of Cold Steel the core is VG-1, whereas SOG uses cores of VG-10. Now these are steels I have experience with; they turn up alot on smaller knives and folders that aren't capable of the heavy-duty work that would make the brittleness an issue. Confederate is right; they're both perfectly serviceable steels on their own; far superior to AUS 8. I put a Cold Steel folder in VG-1 through the same abuse as the M16 I mentioned earlier, and the resharpenings were so inconsistent that I didn't even keep track of them; every week or two at the absolute most. A Cold Steel San Mai blade would put in the same performance at the edge, but would also be alot tougher, more resistant to rusting, breaking, warping, etc.

Since San Mai is fantastically expensive - especially compared to AUS8 - I would suggest you only invest in it if you actually, truly need it. In other words, if your knife is not going to be digging, prying, chopping, hammering, batoning, and otherwise cutting its way through a hostile, uncompromising environment, then you're probably just as well off with AUS8. I have a fair amount of experience in both bushcraft and martial bladecraft - the cardinal theatres of hard use, as far as knives are concerned - and while I tend to favor other steels these days, I find AUS8 more than ample for either purpose. The edge retention is so-so, compared to my other favored steels (S30V, VG10, A2, INFI, etc.) but this is offset by its ease of sharpening and high grindability. Plus, it's used in some really choice knives, like that Cold Steel Corsican.

Hope I helped.
 
AUS-8 is generally comparable to 440B. Serviceable, but not premium. I don't believe that San Mai is worth it, but you can look at the price list and see that CS charges a pretty penny for it.
 
Cold Steel's San mai is totally tough!! I've seen some in house tests, and I was shocked at how well it performed.
 
Please provide comparable pricing on these 2 steels.

How do you know that San Mai is fantastically expensive?


San Mai steels are very difficult and time consuming to make, requiring a great degree of artisanship. Because of this, they are typically only seen on the highest of high-end knives, often comprised of other exotic or expensive materials that push the price all the higher. Even the few very basic San Mai knives (Cold Steel makes a few) command a price in the triple-digits.

Consider the Recon Tanto, a bread-and-butter tactical fixed blade in AUS8:
http://www.coldsteel.com/13rtk.html

Now take a look at the Magnum Tanto II, its San Mai equivalent:
http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-tanto-series.html

Recon Tanto: $119.99
Magnum Tanto II: $359.99

Just an example.

There are many debates as to whether or not San Mai steels are 'worth it.' I find that they are unneccessary, insofar as I've been getting along without them, but that's not to say they aren't worth the money. I want to call them luxury steels, since they're ritzy and easy to do without, but I'll hold back on that because all that durability does afford practical advantages.
I can't say for sure if San Mai steels are worth the money, but I've seen them perform, and I'm impressed. But between other, more practical fixed blades I've just never come around to buying one.
 
Thanks for the info guys, but I was talking about the steel being more
expensive, not the knives that it is used in.

From a steel cost standpoint, I saw two very different knives, from hardheart's link
the Hatamoto and The Spectre. The Hatamoto has a very large
blade the Spectre has a blade at least half the size if not less than that.
Both have similar materials also, G-10/Ti and Micarta/Ti.

If the steel is so expensive why doesn't the Hatamoto cost more? :confused:

mike
 
If the steel is so expensive why doesn't the Hatamoto cost more?

mike

*If* the steel is so expensive? Look at the pricetags of both those knives; it *is* so expensive.
The Hatomoto doesn't cost more than the Spectre because Cold Steel set both their prices at the same value; the amount of metal in the blade is evidently an insignificant factor here. (My guess is that laminating a small blade may be even harder than laminating a bigger one.)
They're both top-quality knives with a top-quality steel in their blades. That steel tends to come in expensive knives. These knives are expensive. Makes sense.
In business there's no constant ratio of product cost to product-materials cost.Even if there was, you'd have to consider the other premium materials (like titanium and micarta) used in both knives, and then there's the variable of craftsmanship - which in the case of these knives is impeccable - to consider.

Everything I said before still stands; San Mai is a very good steel, but usually only seen on pricey knives. There are exceptions - several smaller fixed blades come in San Mai (http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-master-hunter.html) but there are few instances where a knife that size would not be just as effective in AUS8 - and that saves a bit of money, too.
San Mai is a good bet if you want a knife that your grandchildren can give to their grandchildren. Or if you need a knife that can survive the worst environments on earth with minimal maintenance. Other than that, a lesser steel and the extra money is probably a better way to go; you'll be just as satisfied.
 
missin_hobo said:
If the steel is so expensive why doesn't the Hatamoto cost more?

mike

*If* the steel is so expensive? Look at the pricetags of both those knives; it *is* so expensive.
The Hatomoto doesn't cost more than the Spectre because Cold Steel set both their prices at the same value; the amount of metal in the blade is evidently an insignificant factor here. (My guess is that laminating a small blade may be even harder than laminating a bigger one.)
They're both top-quality knives with a top-quality steel in their blades. That steel tends to come in expensive knives. These knives are expensive. Makes sense.
In business there's no constant ratio of product cost to product-materials cost.Even if there was, you'd have to consider the other premium materials (like titanium and micarta) used in both knives, and then there's the variable of craftsmanship - which in the case of these knives is impeccable - to consider.

Everything I said before still stands; San Mai is a very good steel, but usually only seen on pricey knives. There are exceptions - several smaller fixed blades come in San Mai (http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-master-hunter.html) but there are few instances where a knife that size would not be just as effective in AUS8 - and that saves a bit of money, too.
San Mai is a good bet if you want a knife that your grandchildren can give to their grandchildren. Or if you need a knife that can survive the worst environments on earth with minimal maintenance. Other than that, a lesser steel and the extra money is probably a better way to go; you'll be just as satisfied.
Click to expand...

The reason why Hatamoto and spectre are priced the same is because
the spectre has a mirror polished blade while the Hatamoto is polished
on the edge only.It's strictly labour intensive to mirror polish a whole blade.
 
San Mai "3 layer steel" isn't expensive or all that rare. You can find it in Scandanavian knives costing 10$ that perform very well. Likewise Falkniven and Spyderco both use a 3 layer laminated steel of much higher quality than Cold Steel for prices as low as $68 for the Spyderco Caly jr. in a ZDP189 laminate, or the Falkniven 3G steel in knives from about $50 on up. These steels are of far higher quality than anything Cold Steel has produced. I'm not a cold steel hater by any means but I don't buy the story they put out about "San Mai" steels. Cold steel "San Mai" knives typically are finished very well and that costs money. I don't see them outperforming the better laminates costing much less that use much better materials though. That's cold steel and their advertising though. Joe
 
San mai is Cold Steel's registered trademark. The Japanese refer to this type of steel construction as "warikomi." Its purpose is to combine a hard core in a soft envelope providing some of the advantages of both (toughness along with edge harness.)

The knife manufacturers in Japan generally don't make warikomi steel. They buy it from one of the specialists that make it. How expensive it is depends to a large extent on what it is made from. A warikomi with ZDP-189 can be pretty expensive. One with AUS-8 will be more expensive than straight AUS8, naturally, but not too bad.

Warikomi construction is very, very common in kitchen cutlery in Japan but less common in the knives they make for American companies. That is because the technology has never been popular here like it is in Japan and in Scandanavia, for that matter.

Cold Steel has never been much into using exotic steels. They tend to use more common steels and they tend to use them pretty well.
 
If laminating is all that expensive, why aren't Fallknivn knives comparable in price to Cold Steel's San Mai models? :)

There is manufacturing and there is marketing.
 
Does it matter? Will we ever fully understand the relationship between a product and its price tag?
I think the relevant part is that we all still seem to be in similar states of skepticism regarding Cold Steel San Mai. Considering what the OP was asking, let's say I told him that San Mai isn't worth the time or money, especially considering more technologically advanced alternatives. What say you all to that?
 
I have a very old Magnum Tanto ll San Mai. It has to be from right when they came out, I got it in the early to mid 90's? No idea when production started on these knives. I was a kid when I got it. Is it true that steel on these older ones is not VG 1, it's something better?
 
Hoostas said:
I have a very old Magnum Tanto ll San Mai. It has to be from right when they came out, I got it in the early to mid 90's? No idea when production started on these knives. I was a kid when I got it. Is it true that steel on these older ones is not VG 1, it's something better?
Click to expand...

If it doesn't say VG-1 San Mai III, it has an AUS8 core.
 
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