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cold weather- lean-to & long fire or debris shelter?
- Thread starter mtwarden
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Long fire all the way!!! If the conditions are right.
I've spent a few miserable nights in A-frames and while they are well insulated if properly constructed your body heat is all that provides heat to your shelter.
Last year I spent my first cold (30-32F) night in a lean-to with a long fire on the advice of an older member of the Mid Atlantic Primitive Skills (MAPS) group. I was amazed at how comfortably warm that night was.
There are, however, some big down sides to a lean-to/long fire.
A lean-to provides no shelter from the wind and rain. Wind is not much of an issue if you angle your lean-to properly but there is gonna be a big problem if it rains.
Next, the long fire has to be big enough and hot enough to keep you warm in freezing temps and not go out during the night. That means that you have to gather a LOT of firewood, expending much more energy than you really want to in a survival situation. Now, with that said, there is no comparison to the comfort and warmth of a long fire that will directly warm your entire body.
In a true survival situation your taking a risk that the weather will be on your side through the night by using the lean-to/long fire shelter but if fair weather is likely then you would be hard pressed to find a warmer way to spend a freezing night.
I've spent a few miserable nights in A-frames and while they are well insulated if properly constructed your body heat is all that provides heat to your shelter.
Last year I spent my first cold (30-32F) night in a lean-to with a long fire on the advice of an older member of the Mid Atlantic Primitive Skills (MAPS) group. I was amazed at how comfortably warm that night was.
There are, however, some big down sides to a lean-to/long fire.
A lean-to provides no shelter from the wind and rain. Wind is not much of an issue if you angle your lean-to properly but there is gonna be a big problem if it rains.
Next, the long fire has to be big enough and hot enough to keep you warm in freezing temps and not go out during the night. That means that you have to gather a LOT of firewood, expending much more energy than you really want to in a survival situation. Now, with that said, there is no comparison to the comfort and warmth of a long fire that will directly warm your entire body.
In a true survival situation your taking a risk that the weather will be on your side through the night by using the lean-to/long fire shelter but if fair weather is likely then you would be hard pressed to find a warmer way to spend a freezing night.
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I;ve done a few debris huts in 20-30 degree weather.. They work great provided you have enough insulation wchich can be a daunting assignment in some areas.. I've tried doing debris huts without adequate insulation .and the temp dropped to about 18 it was one of the worst nights of my life...
I haven;t tried the long fire debris huts... but it's on my todo list for this winter...
I haven;t tried the long fire debris huts... but it's on my todo list for this winter...
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I have heard, and read, about Mears saying that the Lean-to, elevated sleeping bed, and long fire, he was comfortable, without bedding, to below zero.
TF
TF
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Thanks Dan, That's what I was thinking!!!
The coldest I've been out on a 3-day was -46'F. Close to ground A-frame ( fallen tree) tapering back to the ground. Built a fire reflector wall to push the heat to the opening of the frame, cut spruce limbs for under the sleeping bag, completly covered the frame with spruce limbs and covered that with a tarp then packed snow over the whole thing. I was sheding clothes!!! It was great actually. Hadn't done it since, but no doubt that I can't do it again if I choose.
Russ
LMT66
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http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-firebed/
I actually tried this years ago when I was young. It is a lot of work for just trying it out for one night.
I think a debri shelter and long fire with reflector are the best way to go.
I actually tried this years ago when I was young. It is a lot of work for just trying it out for one night.
I think a debri shelter and long fire with reflector are the best way to go.
Russ,
Can you explain a bit more? I have seen drawings but never experimented with so
complete a shelter. I am having trouble visualizing your setup.
How long did it take to build this thing?
What kind of tarp and how did you get snow to stick to it?
Where was the fire and why did the fire not melt the snow that you had applied?
How did you cut all the wood? Saw, chainsaw, ax?
Lastly, can you share some warnings or info on experiments that did not work?
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Ok let me see if I can get all this answered.
1-I went back to a site that was listed above hoping to find a pic that could be used for the idea and bingo, http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/winter-survival-shelter-de-constructed/ If you look down the page you will see a skeleton of a fallen tree and sticks place at an angle from the ground up to the trunk. This is what I am basicly referring to as the shelter.
2-If memory serves me correct about 2-2.5 hours to the time I rolled out the fart sack.
3-Old cotton duck cloth not nylon. Now stay with me here,
--wood skeleton., covered by spruce boughs., covered by duck tarp., covered with snow. (remember the snow can't be pilled on your a-frame cause you don't want a collasp during the night. Begin your snow pilling from the ground edge and work up. This way the ground will be used to spread that PSI out instead of the skeleton of your log works. Keep in mind, snow when it's the above cold is very dry and the humidity is around 10-20% if that.)
4-Fire location is approx 4-6' straight out of the opening. Make a reflector wall about 3-4" high and put a slight arc to it. imagine a bow in front of you and your hanging on to the knock. the arc provides a curved break that works like an eddy if a slight breeze comes up. Again think of how a river or creek flows through a bend, the water creats a swirling effect retaining the heat in that swirl and not exhausting it out the end as fast. The snow did melt some, but to combat that you leave enough bough sticking out around the leading edge of your shealter to act just like a fur rough on a artic parka. You know you've seen those I know. This adds enough of a heat brake so as to mimimize melt.
5- 24"bow saw, 36"axe, Ontario 18" machette
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More,
Experiment that didn't work, Pilling the snow was one I learned the hard way. That's why I tried to express begin on the bottom and spread snow up, NOT roof pole down. I leanred about the bough on the roof edge to cut down on melt. Nylon is a great item but I prefer a cotton tarp IF and I mean IF I have a means of carring it. Them buggers get heavy after a long haul on snow shoes or cross country skies.
-drink water, even if your not thirsty. keep a pot with snow in it on or near the fire. a MUST!!!
-One of the biggest things is learn to read terrain. Learn weather patterns in your area or the area that your going. Look at history of weather in that area for as long as records can be found. All of this will help you or at least give you a mental edge to work from. One of the biggest problems with a lot of folks is that they don't stop to consider where they put there shelter, ie on a mound, on the side of a hill or even down in a valley. Where will most of the sun exposer be in a day. There is so much to consider that well all I can say is that if your new to extreme cold weather camping, start out at much MUCH milder temp and work down. Experment with shelters that work for you. If you have a thing about tight quarters and a little A-frame is tight. Remember your mind is the most important thing you have when in a survival situation or if you just doing it for fun. At anytime, remember this AT ANY TIME things can change from you being in charge, to you be out of control of whats happening to you. STAY CALM, THINK, DO not overwork yourself(sweat), use the land and what's around you to your benefit. Hell, Read an U.S. Army Survival Manual. Education, education!!!
Sorry for the length hope this helps a little.
Russ
Experiment that didn't work, Pilling the snow was one I learned the hard way. That's why I tried to express begin on the bottom and spread snow up, NOT roof pole down. I leanred about the bough on the roof edge to cut down on melt. Nylon is a great item but I prefer a cotton tarp IF and I mean IF I have a means of carring it. Them buggers get heavy after a long haul on snow shoes or cross country skies.
-drink water, even if your not thirsty. keep a pot with snow in it on or near the fire. a MUST!!!
-One of the biggest things is learn to read terrain. Learn weather patterns in your area or the area that your going. Look at history of weather in that area for as long as records can be found. All of this will help you or at least give you a mental edge to work from. One of the biggest problems with a lot of folks is that they don't stop to consider where they put there shelter, ie on a mound, on the side of a hill or even down in a valley. Where will most of the sun exposer be in a day. There is so much to consider that well all I can say is that if your new to extreme cold weather camping, start out at much MUCH milder temp and work down. Experment with shelters that work for you. If you have a thing about tight quarters and a little A-frame is tight. Remember your mind is the most important thing you have when in a survival situation or if you just doing it for fun. At anytime, remember this AT ANY TIME things can change from you being in charge, to you be out of control of whats happening to you. STAY CALM, THINK, DO not overwork yourself(sweat), use the land and what's around you to your benefit. Hell, Read an U.S. Army Survival Manual. Education, education!!!
Sorry for the length hope this helps a little.
Russ
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Thanks for your quick reply and good explanation.
Initially, I got the wrong image in my mind because I was imaging a big tree as
the ridge pole. Also I was imagining much more extensive siding, i.e. logs side to side
for the length of the ridge pole. Now I see side-logs are there, as ribs (frame),
not siding or insulation.
So, snow is absolutely critical to provide insulation. Do you think the snow must cling, in
any significant amount, to the tarp. If no, a nylon or even woven polypro tarp might work.
Thanks again and I will be re-reading and studying your comments here and the link.
Initially, I got the wrong image in my mind because I was imaging a big tree as
the ridge pole. Also I was imagining much more extensive siding, i.e. logs side to side
for the length of the ridge pole. Now I see side-logs are there, as ribs (frame),
not siding or insulation.
So, snow is absolutely critical to provide insulation. Do you think the snow must cling, in
any significant amount, to the tarp. If no, a nylon or even woven polypro tarp might work.
Thanks again and I will be re-reading and studying your comments here and the link.
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There are only 4 types of shelters to sleep in during cold weather.
Open Shelter with Fire (Lean to with full body fire)
Open Shelter without Fire (ABSOLUTE WORST unless you have a good sleeping bag)
Closed Shelter with Fire (Mandan or quince with candle)
Closed Shelter Without Fire (Quincee without fire)
I've slept in all of these and can tell you they all work. It is all in the construction of your shelter and placement. A lean to will shed water if the angle is high enough and too shallow will cause it to leak. It will absolutely block wind if placed properly against the prevailing wind and has the sides closed in. Fire placement is essential. Take 1.5 strides, not paces and build your fire. Keep a long pole near you to stoke the fire without leaving the warmth of your shelter. Also, extend the top of your leanto over the fire so heat is caught and radiated down. This requires seriously long upright poles placed over your ridge pole.
Heated rocks are nice but I don't burry them in the winter. If the ground is frozen and damp, they will turn your sleeping area into a wet and muddy mess. Bring them close to you and store them in socks if you can.
BTW, here is a shameless plug. We're planning the 2010 winter survival course at the WLC. You can build any of these and try them out for real (outside the comfort of your armchair!) under guided supervision. Read about the 2009 winter course in an upcoming magazine article very very soon!!
Kev
Open Shelter with Fire (Lean to with full body fire)
Open Shelter without Fire (ABSOLUTE WORST unless you have a good sleeping bag)
Closed Shelter with Fire (Mandan or quince with candle)
Closed Shelter Without Fire (Quincee without fire)
I've slept in all of these and can tell you they all work. It is all in the construction of your shelter and placement. A lean to will shed water if the angle is high enough and too shallow will cause it to leak. It will absolutely block wind if placed properly against the prevailing wind and has the sides closed in. Fire placement is essential. Take 1.5 strides, not paces and build your fire. Keep a long pole near you to stoke the fire without leaving the warmth of your shelter. Also, extend the top of your leanto over the fire so heat is caught and radiated down. This requires seriously long upright poles placed over your ridge pole.
Heated rocks are nice but I don't burry them in the winter. If the ground is frozen and damp, they will turn your sleeping area into a wet and muddy mess. Bring them close to you and store them in socks if you can.
BTW, here is a shameless plug. We're planning the 2010 winter survival course at the WLC. You can build any of these and try them out for real (outside the comfort of your armchair!) under guided supervision. Read about the 2009 winter course in an upcoming magazine article very very soon!!
Kev
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2001
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- 2,101
Closed shelter with fire (WLC winter course Pic. Titanium goat Vertex with Stove)
Open Shelter with no Fire (WLC Winter Course Pic)
Closed Shelter without fire (WLC Winter Course Pic. Jerry Y. Quincee)
Open Shelter with Fire (old school 2006 pic. Worst winter environment IMHO. Cold without snow sucks. Temp this night 8 degrees)
Open Shelter with no Fire (WLC Winter Course Pic)
Closed Shelter without fire (WLC Winter Course Pic. Jerry Y. Quincee)
Open Shelter with Fire (old school 2006 pic. Worst winter environment IMHO. Cold without snow sucks. Temp this night 8 degrees)
j williams
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Great pics Kev!!!
the lean-to looks pretty work intensive and very open, but you do have a large fire
the low debris (and tarp/snow) shelter looks less work intensive and just the opposite of open- never thought about a candle for heat- in those enclosed shelter it might be the ticket- I think I might I'm going to add a few candles to the kit
the low debris (and tarp/snow) shelter looks less work intensive and just the opposite of open- never thought about a candle for heat- in those enclosed shelter it might be the ticket- I think I might I'm going to add a few candles to the kit
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Morning Bro,
No, snow is one of those things thats it's effectiveness is weather dependant. Meaning cold and dry vs around freezing and wet. Now that brings in Weight as a major issue and then the water run off. Rule of thumb regarding snow and water ratio is 6" of wet snow will = 30" of dry snow. That means it takes 6" of wet snow to get the same amount of water as it does 30" of dry snow. I use 10'F as my cut off line if you will, between wet/dry.
A great light airy snow is really good for insulation. I have friends who pile the snow all around there dog house openings and the dogs love it. They get in there just like an old bear in a den. Keep in mind that you put straw in with them, and then you need to fluf the straw for them. Same concept with us and boughs that you put under you in a lean to, etc. Some of the outdoor lean tos the guy posted pics of in this thread are great.
Snow cling, no not really that critical. I like cotton cause it just more durable, but I HAVE USED nylon and it works great as well. One thing to remember though and that's when it really cold, nylon and the like get brittle. You can rip out gromets etc. and a stick will poke through pretty easy.
A friend of mine and I were down in SouthEast Alaska on the islands and it rains a lot down there. In the Ketchikan area the avg rain fall is 150+ "s annual. Trust me I know about rain as well. I was a Public Saftey Office down there and Search and Rescue was one of my chores. Again keeping yourself from becoming a victim is something that always must be in your mind.
Back to snow Did that answer your Q ???
River-8
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