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- Sep 24, 2010
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So these manufacturing threads seem to be pretty popular so far, which is a good thing. They bring more pics, discussion, etc, which is what the forum is for obviously.
That being said, we have had some excellent questions come to light about Collins, as far as quality of the different lines, dates of manufacture, who manufactured what, etc. These are all great questions, and we got off tangent in Memphis thread about some clean ups he did(which he always does an awesome job), and I didnt want to continue to hijack that thread, so made a new one.
So I will attempt to shed some light on this some more - and here is what I had in the other thread, we will start with that -
Great questions here - let me see if I can shed some light, or do what I usually do, create even more confusion - here we go.
If you read the Collins and Co thread, you will know that Collins indeed did have many many different lines of axes out over the years. Some with intricate labels, some with imprints with descriptions and many words, and then some with just COLLINS with the box around it. This can get very confusing as to which one was "top line", and then what was middle grade, and what was sub par grade. Other catalogs from manufacturers (like Mann and Warren) I have looked at make it very clear, while Collins does not. You also had the impact of Collins absorbing other manufacturers, and then continuing those lines just to keep that part of the business - Old Timer and Red Seal come to mind, that was an old James Mann line I do believe.
Anyway, back to what were the quality lines of Collins, and the Legitimus vs non legitimus Collins. First, the lines as I understand them and have read them.
Legitimus to me was the logo that Collins was all about - I am not sure if all Legitimus products are high end caliber, but I would think that they would be of good quality and grade. They had contracts with the military in WW2 to provide knives, machetes, and some axes, and the vast majority of those were stamped with the logo. This was also "free" advertising to the troops that would one day come back home and thus remember the Legitimus name, and hopefully have some brand recognition and loyalty. Anything that I have with a Legitimus logo seems to be of fine quality. The double bits, single bits, boys axes, jerseys, knives, and machetes I have with this logo all appear to be of fine quality. One thing I do believe is true, though I am working to find this out for 100% fact is, that I do not believe Mann Edge used the Legitimus logo when they took over Collins. I will verify this somehow, one way or another.
The Homestead line was around a long time. I would classify this is a middle line, a true user line. I have one with the paper label still intact, and one without, and the steel is not the same as a Legitimus, Red Seal, or one that just says Collins. Nothing wrong with it, I just take it to be a middle of the line quality axe. The later Homestead line(s) seem to go downhill in quality, and I attribute this to the lack of demand for the axe as we got into the late 1950s and then 60s, and the manufacturing processes either went into other lines, or the quality control went down to try and provide a product with a more attractive price point so they could try and sell it.
The other lines, such as Red Seal, Red Knight, Commander, I believe are in the same boat as Homestead. Red Knight and Commander were lines that were supplied to distributors for them to then sell to retailers. As time went on, and as above, you get into the 60s, 70s, 80s, the quality goes down. I have a Collins catalog from 1988, and you can see with your own eyes the quality is not what it used to be, or is today with the Council Velvicut lines. I am sure the lack of demand had everything to do with this.
Now, on to the other part of the question, the Collins in the box decal which is just as common if not more common than the Legitimus logo. This seems to have been used from the start of the company all the way up to the end, and even after Mann Edge took over. I have seen the quality vary on these greatly, and as already said it has to do with the age, the older the better quality. I have a boys axe and a regular sb 3.5 lb with the COLLINS name in the box, and they are of both excellent quality. I have seen others at flea markets and I even bought one online one time, with the Collins in the box, and it had the "M" mark on the back meaning it was made in mexico, and it of course is of very suspect quality. the only thing I can tell you here is that you have to look twice, and get your hands on it if you can. I can tell the ones made in mexico in about 3 seconds. On the toe and the heel the metal will be uneven and have a funky grind to it. The polls are not uniform, and if it "NOS" it is about as sharp as the chunk of wood you are going to use it on.
The real quality Collins axes that I have all have the Legitimus logo on them, and then say Hartford. The following pic is an example - the imprint is worn and you can see the arm and hammer and crown logo but not very well -
Axes with this mark, or the same mark but then also warranted seem to be of the best quality Collins axes I have run across. This is just my opinion based off of handling them and all the others. The one shown is a cruiser, and its a brusier let me tell you. I search these ones out in the Collins line first, as they seem to be older, and of higher quality.
So the question of quality I believe is directly in line with the age - the older the better quality, which makes sense. As axes fell out of favor and the chainsaw moved in, I and as Collins, Mann, Kelly saw the market dry up, they had to do whatever they could to try and stay afloat, and I am sure quality control went out the window.
As we look at the imprints, I firmly believe the Collins logos with the Hartford name on them seem to be older and of better quality metal. As we come along the time line, you can see the quality go down - I will try and show that here in pics - but alas it is impossible. You have to have your hands on it and look at it from different angles, lighting, etc to truely see what I mean. So here we go -
Hartfords -
So right from the get go we have two hewing hatchets, and both with similar, yet different imprints. This is frustrating with Collins, I swear they had a million different imprints over time. These ones with the Hartford location and the Legitimus logo somewhat small seem to be of the best quality to me, and I think others agree. I believe these 2 pieces to be from around 1930s - the one is a western union telephone hewing hatchet - and that would seem to fit that time frame. Plus this would put us pre WW2, when the resources for things such as axes were not on lock down from the government. I am sure this aspect had something to do with quality as well.
On to the Legitimus logo - one of the most widely known logos from this time and area(axes). It also will be seen in a million different patterns - which I guess was to keep any possible manufacturers on their toes if they did try and copy it.
Now those are 2 different axes, but basically the same exact imprint. Time wise, as far as when these were manufactured, your guess is as good as mine, but if I was a betting man I would put $5 bucks on 1950s. I dont think they are too old, but have some age to them. They are of good quality overall, I see no issues with them.
Other lines that we talked about were Red Seal, Red Knight, Commander, Bonded, and I know a couple guys on here have R King axes, which was one of the original laborers thru Collins. Those are all different lines via Collins - lets take a look at some of them, I know how you guys love pics!
So above is a Legitimus and a homestead. Believe it or not, the homestead is a 4lber, so do the math, that Legitimus is a monster! But, what about quality? When I examine both of them, you can tell the Legitimus is of slightly different and higher quality than the homestead. So, how does one tell this? This can be hard, depending on how much it was used and abused. When looking at these two, there are some subtle differences. The first thing I do is "knock" on the axe head. You can tell quality right away from doing this, believe me. We will be at flea markets, antique shops, etc, and I will find an axe, pick it up, and start knocking away. Old vintage Plumbs, Kellys, Manns, and other quality manufacturers will "ping" when you knock. Different axes will sound slightly different, but you can tell once you do it long enough. I have been in many antique shops knocking on axes, and the owner will ask me what I am doing and why, and I tell them "I am just verifying that this axe you have $50 bucks on is indeed crap". That usually goes over well. Anyways, the homstead doesnt really ring, it thuds, which is usually true of lower quality lines that I have seen. It is a user no doubt, and it will do the job, it just isnt of the quality the Legitimus is. I hope that makes sense.
On the quality train, if we look at some advertising, which I love the following ad portrays the Bonded axe as the Cadillac of the axe world - hope you can read this -
Interesting here you will see is that Collins had the registration booklet and all that way before GB, Council, or BMC. I find that extremely interesting. Also, this axe was called Bonded because it had the bonded haft to the axe head in the eye, similar to the Plumb Permabond. That would have to date these axes in the 60s I would think. So if that is true, they didnt have a long life span if Mann Edge took over in 1966. Hence why I have only ever seen one with my own eyes. If these axes were indeed the Caddys, then I would assume these were of higher quality than the Legitimus line.
Now, on to perhaps the most interesting/hard/confusing Colllins mark, the simple Collins in the square mark. Where does this fall in the quality line? Good question. This is perhaps the most common marking for Collins on axes and hatchets that I have seen -
I have seen this logo on countless axes and hatchets. As far as its quality, I have seen ones of which I think are good quality, and some of suspicious quality. I believe this is directly tied to the age of the axe. This I believe that the only way to tell is to get your hands on the axes with this imprint. It was a popular imprint though, I think this following ad helps to show that -
So, you will have to decide for yourself as to what the quality is of axes and hatchets with this simple imprint. I have had mostly good luck with them overall.
Now, after Mann Edge took over, they continued the Collins name in a seperate division known as COLLINS AXE. This is evident in the newer Collins pieces. With this, you will be able to somewhat date a piece, as they still used some of the other Collins names like Homestead. The homestead ones in the "Collins blue" were popular. If it happens to say COLLINS AXE on the handle or even the head, then you know it is post 1966 for sure. With that, the quality is probably questionable as well.
One interesting Collins I have and I show to everyone, is my Mexican Collins. I call it the Ugly Taco. Check it out -
So above you can see the Collins sticker, clearly says Lewistown Pa on it. Then when you look at the axe, flip it over, and there it is -
That "M" means mexico. I will tell you that this axe is of terrible quality. There is no edge on the bit. The handle doesnt fit right, and the grain runs 90 degrees from what it should. Overall, its crap. Here is a hatchet - NOS - same thing -
If you are looking for out of the box quality, well this isnt for you lol. It just shows the difference in the industry. How many axes and hatchets were actually being sold in the 1980s, 1990s, or even now for that matter? Axes have seen a resurgence in the past 10 years. Before that, there was a very limited market. So it just reflected the overall need I guess.
This is one of my favorite axes I have ever purchased -
This axe I got off an amish guy for $12 bucks. He had some great felling stories to tell. I asked him what he knew about axes, if he preferred any particular ones, etc. Of course he was simple in his answers. He stated if you give him an axe and an hour, he could cut anything regardless of the axe. I smiled and said I reckon you are right.
I have found out though that the Legitimus marked ceased in 1966 with Mann Edge taking over. They did not use it. So that is a handy timeline to use, at least you know it is pre 1966 if it says Legitimus.
Well I hope this helps shed some light on the markings and quality issue. I didnt provide all the answers, but perhaps some insight, and we will get some conversation brewing about this, some pics, and whatever else. I will continue to dig into the line(s) and try and get some more solid answers.
Thanks!
Mike
That being said, we have had some excellent questions come to light about Collins, as far as quality of the different lines, dates of manufacture, who manufactured what, etc. These are all great questions, and we got off tangent in Memphis thread about some clean ups he did(which he always does an awesome job), and I didnt want to continue to hijack that thread, so made a new one.
So I will attempt to shed some light on this some more - and here is what I had in the other thread, we will start with that -
Great questions here - let me see if I can shed some light, or do what I usually do, create even more confusion - here we go.
If you read the Collins and Co thread, you will know that Collins indeed did have many many different lines of axes out over the years. Some with intricate labels, some with imprints with descriptions and many words, and then some with just COLLINS with the box around it. This can get very confusing as to which one was "top line", and then what was middle grade, and what was sub par grade. Other catalogs from manufacturers (like Mann and Warren) I have looked at make it very clear, while Collins does not. You also had the impact of Collins absorbing other manufacturers, and then continuing those lines just to keep that part of the business - Old Timer and Red Seal come to mind, that was an old James Mann line I do believe.
Anyway, back to what were the quality lines of Collins, and the Legitimus vs non legitimus Collins. First, the lines as I understand them and have read them.
Legitimus to me was the logo that Collins was all about - I am not sure if all Legitimus products are high end caliber, but I would think that they would be of good quality and grade. They had contracts with the military in WW2 to provide knives, machetes, and some axes, and the vast majority of those were stamped with the logo. This was also "free" advertising to the troops that would one day come back home and thus remember the Legitimus name, and hopefully have some brand recognition and loyalty. Anything that I have with a Legitimus logo seems to be of fine quality. The double bits, single bits, boys axes, jerseys, knives, and machetes I have with this logo all appear to be of fine quality. One thing I do believe is true, though I am working to find this out for 100% fact is, that I do not believe Mann Edge used the Legitimus logo when they took over Collins. I will verify this somehow, one way or another.
The Homestead line was around a long time. I would classify this is a middle line, a true user line. I have one with the paper label still intact, and one without, and the steel is not the same as a Legitimus, Red Seal, or one that just says Collins. Nothing wrong with it, I just take it to be a middle of the line quality axe. The later Homestead line(s) seem to go downhill in quality, and I attribute this to the lack of demand for the axe as we got into the late 1950s and then 60s, and the manufacturing processes either went into other lines, or the quality control went down to try and provide a product with a more attractive price point so they could try and sell it.
The other lines, such as Red Seal, Red Knight, Commander, I believe are in the same boat as Homestead. Red Knight and Commander were lines that were supplied to distributors for them to then sell to retailers. As time went on, and as above, you get into the 60s, 70s, 80s, the quality goes down. I have a Collins catalog from 1988, and you can see with your own eyes the quality is not what it used to be, or is today with the Council Velvicut lines. I am sure the lack of demand had everything to do with this.
Now, on to the other part of the question, the Collins in the box decal which is just as common if not more common than the Legitimus logo. This seems to have been used from the start of the company all the way up to the end, and even after Mann Edge took over. I have seen the quality vary on these greatly, and as already said it has to do with the age, the older the better quality. I have a boys axe and a regular sb 3.5 lb with the COLLINS name in the box, and they are of both excellent quality. I have seen others at flea markets and I even bought one online one time, with the Collins in the box, and it had the "M" mark on the back meaning it was made in mexico, and it of course is of very suspect quality. the only thing I can tell you here is that you have to look twice, and get your hands on it if you can. I can tell the ones made in mexico in about 3 seconds. On the toe and the heel the metal will be uneven and have a funky grind to it. The polls are not uniform, and if it "NOS" it is about as sharp as the chunk of wood you are going to use it on.
The real quality Collins axes that I have all have the Legitimus logo on them, and then say Hartford. The following pic is an example - the imprint is worn and you can see the arm and hammer and crown logo but not very well -
Axes with this mark, or the same mark but then also warranted seem to be of the best quality Collins axes I have run across. This is just my opinion based off of handling them and all the others. The one shown is a cruiser, and its a brusier let me tell you. I search these ones out in the Collins line first, as they seem to be older, and of higher quality.
So the question of quality I believe is directly in line with the age - the older the better quality, which makes sense. As axes fell out of favor and the chainsaw moved in, I and as Collins, Mann, Kelly saw the market dry up, they had to do whatever they could to try and stay afloat, and I am sure quality control went out the window.
As we look at the imprints, I firmly believe the Collins logos with the Hartford name on them seem to be older and of better quality metal. As we come along the time line, you can see the quality go down - I will try and show that here in pics - but alas it is impossible. You have to have your hands on it and look at it from different angles, lighting, etc to truely see what I mean. So here we go -
Hartfords -
So right from the get go we have two hewing hatchets, and both with similar, yet different imprints. This is frustrating with Collins, I swear they had a million different imprints over time. These ones with the Hartford location and the Legitimus logo somewhat small seem to be of the best quality to me, and I think others agree. I believe these 2 pieces to be from around 1930s - the one is a western union telephone hewing hatchet - and that would seem to fit that time frame. Plus this would put us pre WW2, when the resources for things such as axes were not on lock down from the government. I am sure this aspect had something to do with quality as well.
On to the Legitimus logo - one of the most widely known logos from this time and area(axes). It also will be seen in a million different patterns - which I guess was to keep any possible manufacturers on their toes if they did try and copy it.
Now those are 2 different axes, but basically the same exact imprint. Time wise, as far as when these were manufactured, your guess is as good as mine, but if I was a betting man I would put $5 bucks on 1950s. I dont think they are too old, but have some age to them. They are of good quality overall, I see no issues with them.
Other lines that we talked about were Red Seal, Red Knight, Commander, Bonded, and I know a couple guys on here have R King axes, which was one of the original laborers thru Collins. Those are all different lines via Collins - lets take a look at some of them, I know how you guys love pics!
So above is a Legitimus and a homestead. Believe it or not, the homestead is a 4lber, so do the math, that Legitimus is a monster! But, what about quality? When I examine both of them, you can tell the Legitimus is of slightly different and higher quality than the homestead. So, how does one tell this? This can be hard, depending on how much it was used and abused. When looking at these two, there are some subtle differences. The first thing I do is "knock" on the axe head. You can tell quality right away from doing this, believe me. We will be at flea markets, antique shops, etc, and I will find an axe, pick it up, and start knocking away. Old vintage Plumbs, Kellys, Manns, and other quality manufacturers will "ping" when you knock. Different axes will sound slightly different, but you can tell once you do it long enough. I have been in many antique shops knocking on axes, and the owner will ask me what I am doing and why, and I tell them "I am just verifying that this axe you have $50 bucks on is indeed crap". That usually goes over well. Anyways, the homstead doesnt really ring, it thuds, which is usually true of lower quality lines that I have seen. It is a user no doubt, and it will do the job, it just isnt of the quality the Legitimus is. I hope that makes sense.
On the quality train, if we look at some advertising, which I love the following ad portrays the Bonded axe as the Cadillac of the axe world - hope you can read this -
Interesting here you will see is that Collins had the registration booklet and all that way before GB, Council, or BMC. I find that extremely interesting. Also, this axe was called Bonded because it had the bonded haft to the axe head in the eye, similar to the Plumb Permabond. That would have to date these axes in the 60s I would think. So if that is true, they didnt have a long life span if Mann Edge took over in 1966. Hence why I have only ever seen one with my own eyes. If these axes were indeed the Caddys, then I would assume these were of higher quality than the Legitimus line.
Now, on to perhaps the most interesting/hard/confusing Colllins mark, the simple Collins in the square mark. Where does this fall in the quality line? Good question. This is perhaps the most common marking for Collins on axes and hatchets that I have seen -
I have seen this logo on countless axes and hatchets. As far as its quality, I have seen ones of which I think are good quality, and some of suspicious quality. I believe this is directly tied to the age of the axe. This I believe that the only way to tell is to get your hands on the axes with this imprint. It was a popular imprint though, I think this following ad helps to show that -
So, you will have to decide for yourself as to what the quality is of axes and hatchets with this simple imprint. I have had mostly good luck with them overall.
Now, after Mann Edge took over, they continued the Collins name in a seperate division known as COLLINS AXE. This is evident in the newer Collins pieces. With this, you will be able to somewhat date a piece, as they still used some of the other Collins names like Homestead. The homestead ones in the "Collins blue" were popular. If it happens to say COLLINS AXE on the handle or even the head, then you know it is post 1966 for sure. With that, the quality is probably questionable as well.
One interesting Collins I have and I show to everyone, is my Mexican Collins. I call it the Ugly Taco. Check it out -
So above you can see the Collins sticker, clearly says Lewistown Pa on it. Then when you look at the axe, flip it over, and there it is -
That "M" means mexico. I will tell you that this axe is of terrible quality. There is no edge on the bit. The handle doesnt fit right, and the grain runs 90 degrees from what it should. Overall, its crap. Here is a hatchet - NOS - same thing -
If you are looking for out of the box quality, well this isnt for you lol. It just shows the difference in the industry. How many axes and hatchets were actually being sold in the 1980s, 1990s, or even now for that matter? Axes have seen a resurgence in the past 10 years. Before that, there was a very limited market. So it just reflected the overall need I guess.
This is one of my favorite axes I have ever purchased -
This axe I got off an amish guy for $12 bucks. He had some great felling stories to tell. I asked him what he knew about axes, if he preferred any particular ones, etc. Of course he was simple in his answers. He stated if you give him an axe and an hour, he could cut anything regardless of the axe. I smiled and said I reckon you are right.
I have found out though that the Legitimus marked ceased in 1966 with Mann Edge taking over. They did not use it. So that is a handy timeline to use, at least you know it is pre 1966 if it says Legitimus.
Well I hope this helps shed some light on the markings and quality issue. I didnt provide all the answers, but perhaps some insight, and we will get some conversation brewing about this, some pics, and whatever else. I will continue to dig into the line(s) and try and get some more solid answers.
Thanks!
Mike
Thin, with no distal taper so they're "flaccid" and whippy, awful surface finish, and handles that are way too thin and want to twist in the hand when the blade flops. Anything Cooper seems to be getting worse by the day.