Collins red knight boys axe

D

dongotto

Joined
Nov 27, 2015
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70
Here is a 2.1lb red knight that belonged to my great grandpa. Head really chops awesome.I hung it on a link 28in hickory handle that is all heartwood. I know heartwood is not as good but It feels and looks great. Handle has a big fawns foot I like. I'm finding a 2lb head on a thin longer handle really works for me for a lot of tasks. I'm 6'6 so I don't mind the lenght.
 
Nice axe, nice job!

As for heartwood, don't sweat it. For an axe haft I don't think there is any significant difference in strength from sapwood. Often, heartwood also has a nicer looking color and grain.
 
gunscrounger said:
As for heartwood, don't sweat it. For an axe haft I don't think there is any significant difference in strength from sapwood. Often, heartwood also has a nicer looking color and grain.
Click to expand...

This has been shown to be true. Heartwood is just fine if it is free from defects. But heartwood is more likely to have small knots in it and such. If you able to inspect the piece and see that it is free from defects then don't hesitate to buy it. But if somebody else is randomly choosing it for you (e.g. - online order) then you're more likely to have a small defect in the heartwood.

Heartwood%20vs%20sapwood.jpg



Also:

"Over the years a prejudice has developed against the heartwood of hickory, Red hickory (heartwood) is often placed in a lower grade than white hickory (sap-wood) simply because of its color. Tests by the Forest Products Laboratory have shown conclusively that red, white, and mixed red-and-white hickory have the same strength characteristics, regardless of color. The negative attitude toward red hickory developed during the days of virgin hickory stands. Under virgin-stand conditions the heartwood was often less dense and not as strong as the sapwood. In the second-growth stands of today this density difference does not exist, and specifications and utilization practices should be adjusted to take this fact into account."

See page 6.
http://cedarriverforge.com/Photo-index/axephotos/USFS publication 241 hickory.pdf


And:

"Red Hickory as Strong as White Hickory"
http://cedarriverforge.com/Photo-index/axephotos/Red Hickory as Strong as White Hickory.pdf
 
Great info square peg. I was able to look through several handles when I bought it and it's free from blemishes. It just felt the best and had good grain.
 
Keep in mind also that with most woods the heartwood is more rot resistant than the sap wood.
 
Square_peg said:
Also:

"Over the years a prejudice has developed against the heartwood of hickory, Red hickory (heartwood) is often placed in a lower grade than white hickory (sap-wood) simply because of its color. Tests by the Forest Products Laboratory have shown conclusively that red, white, and mixed red-and-white hickory have the same strength characteristics, regardless of color. The negative attitude toward red hickory developed during the days of virgin hickory stands. Under virgin-stand conditions the heartwood was often less dense and not as strong as the sapwood. In the second-growth stands of today this density difference does not exist, and specifications and utilization practices should be adjusted to take this fact into account."

See page 6.
http://cedarriverforge.com/Photo-index/axephotos/USFS publication 241 hickory.pdf
Click to expand...

That don't make sense. What would make a difference between virgin stands and second growth? I know the heart hickory is plenty good for a handle, but in my experience, the heartwood is ALWAYS less dense. I learned years ago while working a handle, that a strip of heartwood on the blank would work differently than the sapwood. Even with the same stroke of the rasp across both colors, the sap will cut into tiny curls, the heartwood will fuzz and make dust.
Speaking IMHO, here is where heartwood shines. Hence, the darker the berry, the sweeter the juice.:)
 
I agree with quinton 100 %. I have a lot of old handle catalogs. The better grades all spec sapwood. Lower grades allowed heartwood. Since most hickory logs of a size useable for handles have way more heartwood than sapwood does it make sense that the companies would make their best grades from sapwood if there was no difference? Agree also that if you work enouge hickory with drawknife, spokeshave and rasp you will see what quinton is saying. I have seen more broken hafts then anybody you know. I also found that when the haft has both sap and heartwood it will most often break along the grain where the sap and heartwood meet. As for rot resistant, if you leave your axe some place where this matters, you have more to worry about than the haft rotting. I still follow the age old rule of no hickory heartwood in my hafts.
 
quinton said:
That don't make sense. What would make a difference between virgin stands and second growth? . . .
Click to expand...
"Second-growth hickory has better
strength than old-growth hickory because second-growth trees have had
less competition and grow more rapidly. Old-growth hickory that grew
more and more slowly in dense forests had a good deal of light, brash
wood. In such old trees the sapwood, or white-hickory portion, was the
weakest part of the whole tree. For a long time hickory buyers avoided
certain areas of old-growth forests in their search for stock of high
strength and toughness. More recently, as good hickory has become
more difficult to find, many buyers have learned to select hickory on a
basis of its growth rate, from either old growth or second growth, and
thus have obtained considerable amounts of strong hickory from the
more rapidly grown trees of both."
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=IND43893951&content=PDF

Bob
 
quinton said:
That don't make sense. What would make a difference between virgin stands and second growth? I know the heart hickory is plenty good for a handle, but in my experience, the heartwood is ALWAYS less dense. I learned years ago while working a handle, that a strip of heartwood on the blank would work differently than the sapwood. Even with the same stroke of the rasp across both colors, the sap will cut into tiny curls, the heartwood will fuzz and make dust.
Speaking IMHO, here is where heartwood shines. Hence, the darker the berry, the sweeter the juice.:)
Click to expand...
i'll be over there in about 8 hrs. for some uh dat Pork Roast.
 
rjdankert said:
"Second-growth hickory has better
strength than old-growth hickory because second-growth trees have had
less competition and grow more rapidly. Old-growth hickory that grew
more and more slowly in dense forests had a good deal of light, brash
wood. In such old trees the sapwood, or white-hickory portion, was the
weakest part of the whole tree. For a long time hickory buyers avoided
certain areas of old-growth forests in their search for stock of high
strength and toughness. More recently, as good hickory has become
more difficult to find, many buyers have learned to select hickory on a
basis of its growth rate, from either old growth or second growth, and
thus have obtained considerable amounts of strong hickory from the
more rapidly grown trees of both."
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=IND43893951&content=PDF

Bob
Click to expand...
I really think the author is talking about understory, scrub trees.I know what those are, and have had experience with them.

I've been in virgin woods before, it is an amazing sight to see with huge trees maybe a hundred or more feet apart, but canopies touching 150 or more feet up! I don't see these trees having brash wood. I do see those straggler trees here and there underneath the canopy being brash, because of reduced light, and competition for moisture and nutrients. The trees under the canopy are still large, marketable trees, but can't be of the quality of the giants.

I sold the timber on this farm in the early 90's. The logger told me it was the best stand of white oak he had ever cut. It wasn't virgin, but was not far from it! Most of the logs were waste high or better when pulled to the skid yard. I examined and counted a lot of growth rings for a couple of years, and never once saw those tight rings on the huge old trees that were hauled out of here.
I'll read through it again tomorrow when I'm not so tired.
Thanks!
 
markv said:
i'll be over there in about 8 hrs. for some uh dat Pork Roast.
Click to expand...

Woah, woah, woah! That was last weekend, it's already gone! I plan on doing two butts Saturday, so wait until tomorrow afternoon before leave home. Bring beer! :)
 
quinton said:
I really think the author is talking about understory. . .
Click to expand...
I think if the author was talking about "understory" he would have used it.

Title and first paragraph:

Better Timber From Farms
by BENSON H. PAUL

STRONGER timber grows in farm woods when the farmer
applies the rules of good forestry. Accessibility to all portions of the
woods allows scattered cutting throughout the area as needed. Removal
of poor and diseased trees or thinning in crowded places favors the better
trees and hastens their growth much as weeding a garden promotes
the growth of better vegetables.​

Further in the article:

Studies made by the Forest Products Laboratory in farm woodlands
show how growth conditions affect wood quality. A farmer in Ohio
owned a woods in which there was a good stand of white ash trees approximately
60 years old. The farmer placed a high value on the trees for
future income and was adverse to cutting any of them, even for experimental
study. It was evident that in some places the stand was overcrowded
and growth of the trees in diameter was retarded accordingly.​

quinton said:
. . .I sold the timber on this farm in the early 90's. The logger told me it was the best stand of white oak he had ever cut. It wasn't virgin. . .
Click to expand...
If one agrees with the article, that White Oak stand was not overcrowded.

Bob
 
I don't buy much of the article, Bob, although I understand what the author is pointing out. Just how much stronger is wood with 12 rings per inch vs. 16 or 18? And most importantly, who will pay more $$ for timber that the owner spent countless hours in over a lifetime to get an average extra ring or two per inch. Around here they measure board feet, they don't count rings.. Just like the old farmer knew!:)

I understand timber pretty well, at least in my neck of the woods. I also know overcrowding is short-term in a boundary of timber, and actually continually alleviates its self. My stand of timber, now going on 25 years since logged, has been thinning its self every year. As long as timber is growing at a natural rate it is not brash.
 
quinton said:
. . .I understand what the author is pointing out. . .
Click to expand...
Then I would assume you know the author's definition of second-growth vs old-growth, and his statements regarding growing and quality. I thought that was your question, and that was the reason for my posting that citation. Personally, I think it is valid information. Faster growth means better lumber and earlier harvest.

For a given time span:

fast growth = better quality & more bf ($$$)
slow growth = lessor quality & less bf ($$$)​

quinton said:
I don't buy much of the article. . .
Click to expand...
As they say YMMV.:)

Bob
 
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