Colorization of the Handles and Disassemble of the Mod 42

C

ChuckG

Joined
Nov 25, 1999
Messages
45
The easiest and only way that I know of to get one solid color on Ti is anodizing of the metal. Short of painting the handles that is.

Smith and Wesson manufactured a pistol for years with a "hard anodized" aluminum frame.
The Mod 39 S&W was one of the first modern double action pistols to have an aluminum frame that was made of aluminum and colored "black"

Hard anodizing differs from color anodizing in that the process lays dowm a much thicker coating of anodization.
The material tends to be more scratch resistant, but will still scratch as with all surface colorization.

This is an industrial process that is still widely used today for surface color and protection of different metals.

However the problem lies in finding a company that will do the process for a reasonable fee.

As for disassemble of the blade screws in the handles of the model 42 Bali-Song knives.

This process may be accomplished by the use of an "Arbor Press" with a corresponding punch and die set that will accomidate the handles and the screw size used in the Mod 42.

An arbor press can be obtained that will produce pressures anywhere from 500 pounds to 25 tons and range in price from $100.00 to $18,000.00. Not an investement for everyone

The real expense lies in the punch and die set necessary to remove and reinstall the pins correctly.

The die must hold the handles rigidly in place and support both the bottom side as well as the top side of the handle so that the handle "yoke" will not "splay" apart

The punch must be small enough to fit the screw hole in the screw side of the handles, fit the screw hole in the female part of the blade screw precisely with no lateral movement, be long enough to push the female part of the blade screw completely out of the handle and strong enough to stand the presure that will be place on it from the arbor press, so as to not damage the female part of the blade screw.

The punch and die set will have to be made by a tool and die maker as it is not something that you can go to your neighborhood hardware store and buy.
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All in all it can be a very large expenditure of money just to remove the blade screws from the Mod 42 handles without running the risk of danage or total distruction of the knife.

Been there Done that.
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Regards To ALL

ChuckG

[This message has been edited by ChuckG (edited 10-05-2000).]
 
One note: anodizing Titanium and Aluminum are actually two completely separate processes. Aluminum is dyed, while Titanium receieves a layer of oxide on its surface which reflects only certain colors of light. That oxide can be produced either by heat or electricity. Since black is not a color of light, Titanium cannot be anodized black.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Chuck, for a punch couldn't you use a screw the same size and thread as the screw in the 42? It would have to be longer but once the length was determined a box of them couldn't cost a hole lot. If one got messed up no big deal. If they needed to be hardened the grade of steel could be selected accordingly. That way the nut or female portion of the pivot would be supported and the threads protected. Just a thought.
Is the pivot that thight a fit? I have access to two presses. I also have punches. But I do not have any of the other tooling you mentioned. Do you think that it could be made out of wood?
I know a few tool makers and machinists. I will ask them when I see them what it would involve having something made. Not out of wood.
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Later, Jim

[This message has been edited by KNIFE THROWER (edited 10-05-2000).]
 
Sorry about the misunderstanding, I never meant to infer that you could "black anodize" Titanium.

As pointed out, there is a difference between the two processes.

Aluminum can be anodized black, Titanium can only be anodized different colors.

The colors produced by anodizing titanium are formed by the refraction of light off of and through the thin titanium oxide layer that is produced.
These colors are called interference colors.

There are no pigments or dyes involved.
By combining various surface finishes, striking effects can be achieved.

I apoligise if I mislead anyone and thanks to e-utopia for pointing out my omission.
wink.gif


Regards

ChuckG
 
I've been looking into buying a press myself. The Arbor press isn't very expensive. You can get an adequate manual one for a couple hundred dollars. But, it's the die and anvil that run the cost up. They have to be custom made for the purpose out of tool steel for hundreds of dollars. The whole setup is looking like $400 minimum. I'm still shopping.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
Originally posted by KNIFE THROWER:
Chuck, for a punch couldn't you use a screw the same size and thread as the screw in the 42? It would have to be longer but once the length was determined a box of them couldn't cost a hole lot. If one got messed up no big deal. If they needed to be hardened the grade of steel could be selected accordingly. That way the nut or female portion of the pivot would be supported and the threads protected. Just a thought.
Is the pivot that thight a fit? I have access to two presses. I also have punches. But I do not have any of the other tooling you mentioned. Do you think that it could be made out of wood?
I know a few tool makers and machinists. I will ask them when I see them what it would involve having something made. Not out of wood.
smile.gif

Click to expand...


The problem with using a screw the same size as the screw hole in the female part of the blade screw is the small size of the torx screw, probably a 4-40 screw

What is likely to happen, is the screw threads will deform in the female part of the blade screw and "gall" and then become impossible to remove at all.

The second reason is my understanding of the way the Model 42 is constructed, a small diameter hole on the Torx blade screw side of the handles and a larger diameter hole that is counterbored on the opposite side handle for the press fit female part of the blade screw.

The female part of the blade screw goes completely through only one side of the handle and contacts the inside of the blade yoke.

It does not go complete through both sides of the handle, but is pressed fitted into the handle and because of that is very difficult under normal circumstances to remove with ordinary tools.

See below diagram:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1051043&a=7764347&p=30033494

I am not saying that it can't be done, but some people have tried to remove the pins with no luck, while others were successful in removing the pins

It would be possible to make a die out of "lignae vitia" wood. That wood is almost as hard as steel but can be formed with wood working tools.

Your biggest problem lies in making the punch. It would have to be made of extremely strong and hard steel to prevent deformation due to its very small size.

You would also have to put a spacer between the side of the blade yoke to keep from "crushing or pressing" the yoke together

See the below diagram for example: LINK

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1051043&a=7764347&p=30037016

Hope this helps some

Regards to All

ChuckG.
smile.gif





[This message has been edited by ChuckG (edited 10-06-2000).]
 
Sorry about the misunderstanding, I never meant to infer that you could "black anodize" Titanium.

As pointed out, there is a difference between the two processes.

Aluminum can be anodized black, Titanium can only be anodized different colors.

The colors produced by anodizing titanium are formed by the refraction of light off of and through the thin titanium oxide layer that is produced.
These colors are called interference colors.

There are no pigments or dyes involved.
By combining various surface finishes, striking effects can be achieved.

I apoligise if I mislead anyone and thanks to e-utopia for pointing out my omission.
wink.gif


Regards

ChuckG
 
But garuanteed this thermal oxidation (coloring) of the handles will wear off after a period of time, no doubts, right??

Will the latch pin or any hinge pins melt or disform? (I don't know for sure if the pins are Ti)
Also, will the washers melt it under too much heat for too long (I'm going to use a propane torch)?

I'm just going to keep the flame on the latch end of the bali and let it heat up all across the handles, I can do that can't I?

Thanks

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Cameron
"It takes a killer...to stop a killer"
uriel.gif

A few of my balisongs
My Photopoint album
 
Chuck, thank you for making it much clearer to me. It would be nice to be able to see what BM is using for tooling. If they didn't make it in house maybe someone can find out who made their tools. Kent Moore make all H-D's speciality tools but there are aftermarket Co.s that make the same tools for less money and they are very nice. I am not sure where I am giong with this. I guess what I am thinking is that the tools might be made and available to us already? Or has someone already looked down this raod?

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Later, Jim
 
Oh, I've seen BM's tooling. The assembly is done in their factory in Oregon City. They have a press with an elaborate fixture. The operator slides the blade and handles in and all of the other parts just fall into place. The fixture aligns everything and holds it all in place. Then, the press sets the pins. But, they planned this fixture and the whole work cell that accompanies it to make a hundred of these per day. A person wanting to do only the occational piece wouldn't need such an elaborate setup. Unfortunately, balisong assembly and disassembly is not a common task, so you can't just buy the necessary tools at Sears. And, whenever you start buying custom-made machine tools, you're talking bucks.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
Chuck is right on the cost of machine tools and especially the cost of having a special punch and die set made to remove the blade pivot pins in the Model 42.

I forgot to mention that the main reason that you need to use an "Arbor Press" is its ability to maintain a constantly incressing amount of pressure concentrated in one small area.

I use an arbor press to set and crush the flush blade pins on my knives for those that don't want the removeable blade screws.

This task takes a tremendous amount of pressure to flatten out the pin in a consistant manner without doing damage to the rest of the knife.

I may just have to make the necessarty tooling required to remove the blade pins from the Model 42's, since I finally broke down and bought one.

Regards to All.
smile.gif


ChuckG
 
Originally posted by BalisongMan:
But garuanteed this thermal oxidation (coloring) of the handles will wear off after a period of time, no doubts, right??

Will the latch pin or any hinge pins melt or disform? (I don't know for sure if the pins are Ti)
Also, will the washers melt it under too much heat for too long (I'm going to use a propane torch)?

I'm just going to keep the flame on the latch end of the bali and let it heat up all across the handles, I can do that can't I?

Thanks
Click to expand...

The pins are probably made from stainless steel either 18-8 stainless or a 300 or 400 series made to Benchmade specifications by a machine screw manufacturing company.

To melt stainless you are looking at heat that is seriously in excess of 2,500 plus degrees.

Titanium has even a higher melting point.

The heat treating companies heat soak D-2 and ATS-34 between 1800 and 1900 degrees for up to several hours to harden the blades.

If you are going to thermal oxidize your Model 42 handles then you must keep the blade and the blade pins cool.

TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Get a large coffee can, preferably empty,
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Fill it full of water and ice, the colder the better when dealing with heat.

Open your knife and lock the latch in place.

Take two metal rods, pieces of coat hanger will work cut them long enough to extend over the top of the can and and run them through the two holes closest to the blade.

Then place the knife blade DOWN into the can full of water and ice.
The two rods extending across the top of the can will hold the knife with the handle pointing up so you can apply the heat to the latch area.

The water and ice must cover the area of the knife where the blade fastens to the handles and all must reamin submerged under the water during the heating process.

While you are heating the handles, the heat will progress down the handles towards the water and you may see the water start to heat and boil around the handles.

Don't worry, the heat will not go past the water line enough to hurt the temper in the blade pins or the blade.

The colors will change directly in proportion to the amount of heat applied.

When the desired colors are reached, remove the heat source and cool the handles in the water, cool the handles with air from one of those cans of commpressed gas used to blow off computer,

NO OPEN FLAMES ANYWHERE IF YOU DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE GAS MAY BE FLAMMABLE SO DO NOT TAKE A CHANCE

Or you can just let the handles cool down in room air.

Each process will give different results, different colors.

Different finishes, high polish, very fine satin finsh or a combination of both will give different results.

The finish like any surface colorization will wear off over time, but the nice thing about using the thermal colorization method, is that you can always go back and do it again.

Again try this at your own risk, I have not tried this on the Mod42 personally, but have used this method in the past to heat color Titanium with excellent results.

As with any endevor, prepare well, go slow, take your time and if there is any doubt in your mind about what you are doing, don't do it.
smile.gif


Hope this will help

Regards to All

ChuckG


 
That is a VERY GOOD site. It is what I used as one of my recourses when I did my (42) project. (I found it in a search) Just thought I would let you know that it was very helpful.

mmtmatrix

[This message has been edited by mmtmatrix (edited 10-06-2000).]
 
Getting one solid color will require disassembly since the handles must be evenly heated. Even heat is key. This process will be best done in an oven such as those used to heat treat blades.

The pins, BTW, are Ti and are made by BM at their factory. They have a machine that does this. Clay and I watched one day as they were being made.

It would also not surprise me if the screws are made at BM too. The head is a different shape then I've seen. While BM uses a lot of off-the-shelf screws and small parts, they also have a machine, two in fact, that take in rod stock and spits out lots of chippings and screws of any size and style you want. Why? Because this way their designers are not confined to catalog parts. If you want to make a truly unique end product, sometime you need to start with unique components.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
Diaassembly is not as complicated as everyone thinks. I was able to get mine apart with no damage to the handles or pins at all. First I drilled a hole in a piece of hardwood 1/4" diameter. This is the base that I will rest the handles on with the pin that is going to be removed lined up over the hole. Next I heat the pins with a propane torch to loosten any Locktite that might be holding them in. I line up the pin over the hole, insert a pin punch that just clears the threads and with about 2 or 3 firm taps, they pop right out. The pins are knurled at the top and that is what is doing the major part of the locking in place. No damage at all to the handles or pins.
 
Keep in mind that the tang pin just fell out of one of mine. You may have one that is unusually loose. Other folks have reported pounding hard with no luck.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
Well, I decided to get the old torch out today and try seriously myself. Mine is just the classic little propane brazing tourch that consists of a valve and tip assembly that screws onto a camp-stove type propane cylinder. You can guy the whole rig including your first gas cylinder for about $20 at most hardware or home store.

I worked on one handle at a time using a rubber band to hold the blade into the other handle. I used pliers to grip the handle I was working on very close to the tang. I worked the torch from the junyo toward the tang. It took a long time to heat each handle up enough to get it to turn colors. when I had it looking good, I quenched it in a glass of water.

The blade never got even hot to the touch much less enough to mess up the hardening.

I got mostly blues and purples and yellows.

I like it.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
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