Controversial Opinion

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

Joined
Sep 28, 2005
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For a long time there has been a debate over the importance and damage from flipping open knives and performing spine whack tests. Most makers seem to be of the opinion that these actions are destructive- to the point that I have heard that it voids warranty.
My opinion is this- that those that say it is damaging to the knives are just going with the status quo. They would rather complain about people misusing the knives than fix the problem. This is more of a problem with flipping open knives but both seem to be related. I feel that rather than complain that makers need to make the knives better. If we can go into space I don't think that it is too much to ask. I have never seen anybody try to put vibration dampening materials in front of the stop pin- which I feel is one way to solve the situation. Stop pins out of a different material that can handle impact without deformation should exist somewhere. If the dampening material has some give to it (say Krayton) this may help prevent damage when spine whacking as it gives a small amount but then will push back

Not trying to pick too big of a fight but I just don't buy the excuse that it is damaging- the problem is out there so why is there no solution?? Does anybody feel the same way or is it just me?
 
I think the best choice is that if you want a knife to flip open, buy one that is designed for that or go for a bali or have one made for you by a maker who will do it. Not sure that we should expect every knife out there to handle flipping.

I do not have a problem with a maker or production company defining what their knife can take and what they will and will not cover. The designed the knife and they should know.

I do like the idea of knives that can handle things people want to do with them.
 
D. Ralph has stated that his Madd Maxx is made to take it and that it can be flipped. Got to like a maker like that!
 
Bastid- would love a bali but- Canadian eh! I understand that not every knife is made to be opened in such a manner but most in reality are treated as such, and I'd like to see more makers (such as Mr. Ralph) take this issue to task rather than just say it is abuse. In my mind if it can be flipped open it should be designed to take it.
Just picky I guess.
 
BM Axis locks and Spyderco Lock Backs seem to hold up under all the flicking someone can dish out without much affect to them at all.
 
Let me know when you find a material that can be struck repeatedly with a sledgehammer without deforming, yet is hard enough not to create discernable play under load and has a structural strength at least equal to steel. It will make a great stop pin. Of course, is also has to completely absorb impact without transmitting any force to the liners, or the liners will have to made of the same material. But then, the blade will have to be made of the same stuff, otherwise the blade tang will just peen around it, so whatever it is must have great edge-holding ability and be easy to sharpen as well.
 
To be honest , I can think of three of my knives that I have repeatedly , over the years , flicked open with wrist/forearm force.

All three are not crappy knives by any realm of the imagination and all three have developed blade play and loose locks.

I do not flick with force anymore regardless of the make of the knife , just my .02
 
It doesn't matter to me. I don't flick open my knives.

I find one hand opening to be a benefit because I can hold the thing to be cut with one hand, then grab the knife. But can't find a benefit in flicking open a knife. It doesn't add any usefulness to the knife. For me knives are tools, not weapons.
 
I imagine that repeated "spine whack" tests can damage a knife over time, but that's not the reason I'm opposed to them. My reasoning is, if a guy wants to give a couple of spine whacks to make sure the lock will hold, great. But hammering away until it fails is ridiculous.

Inertia "slamming" open a liner or frame lock will just cause the lock-up (liner to blade pivot area) to wear a little faster, I think. I've done it to my BM975 many times....out of boredom and general playing around, not that I think it's the proper way to open a knife.

Maybe knife makers might make their knives a little tougher, as Kris suggests, but I wouldn't if I were a knife maker. I mean, if I wanted to sell something that could be slammed open all the time, I'd make and sell "slam openers". They wouldn;t be a knife or have any other real function, they would just be something guys could...."slam open". Same with my "spine whacking" gadget. It wouldn;t have any real purpose except to just relieve boredom by just sitting around, hacking and whacking away at a spine. It wouldn;t have an edge or anything. What good would that be? The stuff I would make that had edges, I would call "knives"......

:D
 
There's a difference between flipping open a knife when you need to use it, and flipping open a knife 100 times a day for fun. There's a difference between flipping open a knife with enough force to get it open, and flipping open a knife with as much force as you can possibly muster with a full arm swing. Flipping open a knife using only the force necessary, as often as it is necessary to open the knife, shouldn't hurt a quality knife. Flipping open a knife using as much force as possible, as often as you possibly can, is likely to damage something, eventually. They are designed to cut things, remember, they are not designed as hand exercisers or knifesturbating aids.

Spine whacking a folder a few times, once in a while, to test the lock, is a good and important thing to do if you plan on relying on that lock to protect your fingers. Spine whacking a knife as hard as you can 100 times a day is likely to damage something, eventually (but I really don't think there's a lot of people doing this). Any knife that is so fragile it will be damaged by a simple spine whack test is of poor quality, and belongs in the garbage, not in your pocket.
 
knarfeng said:
It doesn't matter to me. I don't flick open my knives.

I find one hand opening to be a benefit because I can hold the thing to be cut with one hand, then grab the knife. But can't find a benefit in flicking open a knife. It doesn't add any usefulness to the knife. For me knives are tools, not weapons.
Click to expand...

Come on, man, get with it! Snap that puppy open with as much force as possible, no matter what you're going to use it for. Soon, you can make an "Evil Sheeple" post when people around you react to it. :rolleyes:
 
Second what Yab said. All materials break down, it's just natural. Also, if you're more mechanically inclined, do a force calculation on exactly how much pressure gets put on the stop pin or other component when you flick a knife open. Remember that because it's circular, the area of stop pin that hits the tang is very small. Looking at the Madd Maxx, if I'm looking at it right, he's arranged it so that the thumbstuds are contacting the frame, which is a rather ingenious way of doing things. Given the larger contact area, it should be fine for a long time (probably longer than any of us), but eventually, you just can't win against entropy.

In the case of a liner/frame lock, think about what a stop pin that gives will entail. The blade can move slightly further back, which will (if my geometry is right) push down on the liner, stressing it even further.

With a lockback, having padding will mean that there will be some vertical play (possibly to an unsafe degree), and you can figure out people's reactions to that. As far as I can tell (although someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the same also applies to axis locks and their derivatives.

As for this:
In my mind if it can be flipped open it should be designed to take it.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, your logic means that since my knife can be run over by a two-ton truck, it should be designed to take it. There are limits to everything.

As it is, a lock that is self-adjusting (axis or derivative) is probably your best bet.
 
knarfeng said it well, I just can't see why I would want to flick a knife open, doesn't do anything for me. Not to offend Kris, but it seems like a parlour or circus trick more than anything to me. For those that want a knife to be able to take it or do that to, have a boo at punches and chisels that need the anvil end occasionally reshaped from use, the action is much the same, light hits or hard hits, the end result just arrives at a different time. My thought is that it's abuse but if it does something for you, have at it.

As for a light occasional tap to the spine, when touring the Buck plant I noticed every 110 gets a light tap or two under the workbench edge after sharpening just to check lockup before it is placed in a rack with about 100 other 110's. I don't see a problem with it, while I don't do that to my knife, might try it sometime though.
 
What is the point of flipping open anyway? It imples violence, a need for speed, attention getting, auditory feedback, and ego satiation. All things young males without a outlet for their hormones tend to indulge in.

It's juvenile behavior with no real world justification, regardless of the macho "I'm training for self defense" excuses. Adults who use tools don't need to constantly bang them around for practice or feedback. Older mechanics don't spin their rachets like New Years party favors or rev the impact gun like a rock star; master carpenters aren't tapping their estwings on stuff or quick drawing their drill drivers; electricians don't grab their meters and plug in just to watch the needle move. Adults use their knives in a discreet and unthreatening manner, close them, and put them away - children whip them out with a flashy noise-making display of undisciplined and sometimes careless acrobatics to gain the attention they must desperately need to satisfy a void in their self esteem.

Of course, that's just a casual observation of a seasoned father of three boys and veteran, who worked basic training for eight years and retired as a MP squad leader. I could be wrong. :D
 
yablanowitz said:
Let me know when you find a material that can be struck repeatedly with a sledgehammer without deforming, yet is hard enough not to create discernable play under load and has a structural strength at least equal to steel. It will make a great stop pin. Of course, is also has to completely absorb impact without transmitting any force to the liners, or the liners will have to made of the same material. But then, the blade will have to be made of the same stuff, otherwise the blade tang will just peen around it, so whatever it is must have great edge-holding ability and be easy to sharpen as well.
Click to expand...

:D :D :D

The funny thing is, this discussion usually starts up in a Sebenza thread, since Chris Reeve discourages hard openings. And this is good advice even though the Sebenza has a bushing for a stop pin, and a rounded contact area on the tang, all to absorb more impact than most knives can.

Metal on metal, the harder you hit it, the sooner it wears.
 
Bastid said:
I think the best choice is that if you want a knife to flip open, buy one that is designed for that or go for a bali or have one made for you by a maker who will do it. Not sure that we should expect every knife out there to handle flipping.

I do not have a problem with a maker or production company defining what their knife can take and what they will and will not cover. The designed the knife and they should know.

I do like the idea of knives that can handle things people want to do with them.
Click to expand...

I agree, with the entire statement.

Now and then I flip (pop) the blade open on some of my folders just to see if my technque is still correct. None of my folders have shown any dammage from my now and then flipping/popping. So, at least some of the knife makers are building pretty robust knives.

It would be nice to see some knife company say their folder can take all the flipping you can dish out. But, I don't expect to see it any time soon.
 
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