Convexed back bevel?

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Jul 28, 2003
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On some of my knives I've been convexing on a mousepad with 1000 grit sandpaper and then using the 15 degree setting on my sharpmaker to get a good edge. It seems to improve cutting a lot from having a set back bevel per se, because the shoulders are less pronounced. Has anybody else tried doing this?

The reason I'm doing this is that as much as I admire the cutting ability of convexed edges, I just can't beat the sharpmaker at making a nice, thin edge yet. This seems like a reasonable compromise because although the transition from the edge to the back bevel isn't completely smooth, the transition from the back bevel to the blade belly should be smoother and more polished. Whatddya think?
 
Try a concaved back-bevel if you can! It'll impress you even more (though it won't look as cool as a polished convex back-bevel).
 
Not sure if I understand the question. But I think just about all the best ABS (style) cutters have a convex portion to at least the blade right behind the cutting edge. From there most put on the final edge with a stone using a microbevel that is barely discernable. This may be exactly what you are doing with the combination of mousepad and sharpmaker.

John
 
Hey Thom, I do the same thing he does except I don’t use a mouse pad, sandpaper, or the Sharpmaker nor do I micro bevel at 15 degrees. ;)
 
But I think just about all the best ABS (style) cutters have a convex portion to at least the blade right behind the cutting edge.

The critical part here is the cross section, not the curvature. The knives cut well because at the edge they are very thin and acute. Along of course with issues of weight and balance and extreme user skill.

-Cliff
 
Thanks, Cliff.

I do agree about the pure cutting ability. But do you think they could offer the combination of cutting performance and strength with a purely flat ground blade?

The consensus seems to be that a very thin flat ground blade will cut very well, but lack durability. This comes from a lot of practical "experimentation" (I put it in parentheses because I know you are a trained scientist; I mean it not in the rigorous academic sense, but in the sense of trial and error).

John
 
But do you think they could offer the combination of cutting performance and strength with a purely flat ground blade?

Most of them run flat ground blades with convex bevels. The convex bevels are very close to flat, if they were not then the apex angles would be too obtuse, i.e., it would be a splitting maul. Much is made out of the effect of smoothing shoulders and similar, however the problem with the comparisons is usually one of incorrect correlation.

The most common comparisons take a knife with a 25 degree flat bevel and turn it into a bevel which sweeps from 8 to 12 and then of course it cuts much better. But this isn't due to the curvature, it is simply due to the cross section. I would agree that one single flat bevel from spine to edge would be ineffective, and even one additional edge bevel isn't optimal.

However I would argue that the difference that any additional bevels over 2 at the edge would be very small and a convex bevel can be viewed simply at the addition of multiple bevels.

-Cliff
 
An infinite number of bevels, one for each line tangent to the curve-since a point has no defined size, you can fit any number on a curve, and draw any number of lines through them?
 
OK, you guys lost me with all the big words :) But I've done about the same as NeedleRemorse to a couple of my knives and my hawk, and they cut much better without seeming any weaker at all, although I removed a noticeable amount of cross-section. I call it feathering the bevel back. Like NR, I think it's a reasonable compromise. Added a lot of "value" to some inexpensive knives made of good steel, in my case.
 
I don't personally see how a thin acute Convex edge will cut any better than a thin acute v-grind edge. But I still favor convex edges because they are SO EASY to maintain. They take all the thinking and agonzing over following to bevel right out if it!! They look freaking cool to.

Pile1.jpg
 
An infinite number of bevels, one for each line tangent to the curve-since a point has no defined size, you can fit any number on a curve, and draw any number of lines through them?

Yes, but in reality there are no infinites and there is no such thing as a convex bevel in the mathmatical sense because perfection of that nature doesn't exist. What you actually define as convex would be similar to "A line with a significant curvature." and you would define significant to be some tolerance above flat. Nothing is actually perfectly flat, even optically flat mirrors, they all have some tolerance. For knives, since the curvature on edge bevels is so small, 8-12 degrees usually for example on the high performance cutters, from shoulder to edge, even one flat bevel gives just a 2 degree deviation, and two flat bevels would approximate the curvature to within a tolerance that there is no way it would be significantly different. And you thought that high school math was useless in the real world. Math is the ultimate hype buster.

-Cliff
 
I've found that whenever/however you thin out a backbevel you see a noticable improvent. I would figure that a smoother and rounded transition in the x-cross section can only help.

I did recently use my belt grinder to put a new edge on a knife that was conexed. So, it's kinda like what's described. I haven't done too much withit but it did do a number on some card board. Better than the old edge, but it was in need of a sharpening.

Cliff, I've never liked thinking that a convex edge as a neat evenly shaped curve, but as a parabola. It's kind hard grinding that nice curve you see drawn on a sharpened blade. So, you at least edge up with a better angle at the edge.
 
I really don't understand how such a simple problem can cause such a stir. All this talk about what is best. Isn't it really simple in the end?

The thinnest a blade can physically go, is by going from spin to edge in one staight line, full flat to zero edge. To go thinner than that requires changing spine thickness. Now there are a few provisions to this statement.

1) If you do mainly shallow cutting, you can hollow out the blade, keeping it thin for as long as possible. The extreme of that is a 1/1 hollow ground razor. It doesn't get thinner than that because it employs already a second radius without which it would deform already during shaving. But for through cuts you gain little, because on the top of the blade you run into the spine at an even more sever angle bound to increase drag.

2) If the steel or the application does not permit a full flat to zero edge or you run into binding issues you need to increase the thickness at the very edge while otherwise maintaining the blade as thin as possible, which naturally leads to either full flat with edge bevel or full convex or full flat with convex edge. Which one of these is again irrelevant to some degree. Really the imperative question is how thick is the blade behind the edge, because much above that we are dealing again with pretty much the same geometry.
2a) Now finally there are are the issues of drag and binding and while I have ignored them for the longest time I am more an more convinced that they play a bigger role than many think. When batoning (which admittedly is nothing for extremely thin profiles but I think in the end it translates) my experience has been that a convex profile outperforms a flat, most likely because of the smaller contact area (binding). I think even though it took ME a long time to figure this out, this is rather well known and the reason why practically all axes and splitting mauls are convex. If you want to you can create an even bigger stand-off by combining convex edge and hollow grind or applying a median grind, eitherway you have a relief and the blade is contacting only on its widest part (locally of course, draw it up if you don't know what I mean). And finally drag: Any sharp transition creates drag, so obviously you don't want any sharp transitions. Whether you want to believe that it makes a difference or not is up to you, but the difference is there. A smooth transition will create less drag than a sharp transition, which favors the convex grind over the edge bevel grind. Not to mention that the convex grind is locally actually thinner, because for the same angle at the edge and same angle of the body of the blade and same spine thickness, it is create by removing and blending the shoulder -> less material.

Between bevel (not microbevel, they hardly change the geometry) and convex with all other things equal (angles and thicknesses) the convex seems to me clearly superior....by how much? Try it out for yourself, if you don't see a difference, forget about it.
Which one is best between Full flat, convex and hollow and any combination thereof? Take you pick, preferably suited to your intended task, and preferably suited to your choice of steel and heattreat.....sheeesh is that really so complicated? :rolleyes: :D
 
.... this is rather well known and the reason why practically all axes and splitting mauls are convex.

Hardwood axes are hollow ground, only softwood axes are convex. The larger splitting mauls are triangular. Drag in general will be a small force compared to binding in most materials unless the material is weak and sticky (cheese).

-Cliff
 
Hardwood axes are hollow ground, only softwood axes are convex. The larger splitting mauls are triangular. Drag in general will be a small force compared to binding in most materials unless the material is weak and sticky (cheese).

-Cliff

Well, I don't know nearly as much about axes as you do, so I am sure you are right. However, I have not seen anywhere an axe mentioned that is fully hollow ground all the way to the edge. Hollow ground with a convex edge, yes. But again my knowledge is very limited.

And that drag will be a small force is really a stipulation. I don't think there have been any objective tests on this. Is cardboard for example "weak"?
 
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