Copying designs...

Tracer-san

Tracer-san

Joined
Jan 28, 2000
Messages
854
What's your opinion on having a design from certain maker made by another one because you can't/won't afford the real thing?

As a maker, does that bother you? It's ok but you'd like to be asked first? What gives?

As a customer, do you care who's the real maker of the knife or as long as you're getting the design you're good to go? (Taking into consideration that the original designer OK'ed the job)

Of course a CQC6 or an ATCF copy (to name 2 designs I really like) isn't the same as the real deal, but some people might like just the design and not want to pay for a "designers premium" so to speak.


So, what you think?


NsB
 
None of the makers that I have dealt with will do a direct copy of another makers work.

If you have the permission of the original designer then I can't really see anything wrong with having a copy made. As far as I am concerned, without that permission it is theft.

Personally, I can't see Ernie Emerson or Bob T giving their permission to have this done, but I was wrong once in the past and could be again.
 
Keith,

This actually poped into my mind as I recalled someone that had a CQC6 made by some other maker than EE after he gave his OK.

I'm on a point where I'm leaning to customs as I already have my share of productions (not even close to some here, but almost enough for me) and I'd rather have a maker make something of his own creation than copying something, but I'm curious as what the rest for the people here think about it.

I know I won't be getting a CQC6 in a long time (if ever) but I'll get an ACTF at some point.

NsB
 
Tracer-san,
are you sure about this? I dont think Ernie gave anyone permission to copy his designs, especially the CQC6. I know that's his special one and he has said that he wont even ever make the 6 a production model in order to keep it special.
I know farid from England makes copies of Ernie's designs, though very crudely, and I know direct from Ernie that he doesnt have permission.
As was said, I dont think any respectable maker would make a direct copy of anyone without permission.
 
Dave,

I'm pretty sure I read it at "that other place"... I'll try to find out the thread tomorrow to be sure about it.

NsB
 
Originally posted by striper28
I think that Bob T gave permission when he wrote his book. I saw his designs spring up everywhere.
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Can you expand on this? I don't have his book but does it explicitly say that other makers can use his designs or are you inferring permission from something else in the book?

Thanks.
 
as long as it is not a 100% copy, I think it's fine but would need to look at it on a case by case basis.

thing is, most BASIC/GENERAL designs / features are NOT original and have existed time in memoriam. it may have been popularised by someone, but does not belong solely to that person.
 
IamMatt,

I don't have my book with me right now, but I recall Bob telling folks to copy the design. His folder book was written as a "how I make folders/how folders are made/how you can make folders book, so he encourages folks to go ahead and try their hand at folder making, using his ATCF design as a good starting place.
 
Originally posted by Crayola
IamMatt,

I don't have my book with me right now, but I recall Bob telling folks to copy the design. His folder book was written as a "how I make folders/how folders are made/how you can make folders book, so he encourages folks to go ahead and try their hand at folder making, using his ATCF design as a good starting place.
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That's good to know, Karl. I have felt a little nervous about this one by Jim Matthes, which is obviously very "Terzuola-influenced."

I spent a few days in Lethbridge in 1975, BTW. Camped at a big park with a lake or pond, IIRC.
 

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I think making direct copies without written permission from a designer is pretty low if you are selling the knife.

If you are making it yourself and want to focus on the mechanics of making the knife and worry about your design skills later than it's okay, but you should not sell the product.

With that said, Steve Voorhis has generated quite a following by making reproductions of some of the most famous knives ever made and selling them at reasonable prices, I don't think he's taken much heat for it. I also think his focus is on knives that can no longer be ordered from the original maker for one reason or another. I once owned one of his knives that was a pretty close copy of another popular knife still being made so that is probably not 100% accurate either...
 
People who copy existing designs without regard to the original designer have a very limited understanding of what integrity is! :(
 
Tom, my post was intended to see what people think about having a design from X maker made by Y maker (with permission)

We already established that that blatant rippoffs are not cool at all for anyone :mad:

NsB
 
Generally, designs that are not "useful in a new way" cannot be patented. IOW if a design is just a design, even if new, but does not creat a new or better "function", it cannot be patented. Shapes generally cannot be patented, therefore, Randall holds only one patent, for their "channeled" handle attachment. ...but even if shapes were patentable, they would be in force for only seventeen years. I expect a knife design would be free to copy after at least 17 years.

There are a number of custom makers who will copy a Randall #1 for you. They won't stamp "Randall Made" on it but the shape is widely known and considered "classic" at this point. Now when it comes to something much newer, I think a custom maker would want to ensure it was not copied too closely.

Bruce
 
For me, there is a difference between can´t and won´t afford it.

If you can´t, b/c the maker died, so what. I see it as a dedication or tribute to the one. As long as it is just for your own.

If it contains something of a development compared to the original. Why not, if it is always claimed as a dedication or homage.

But, not any design can be as personal. Maybe this survival knife from CR, for example is an original. But any kind of a Bowie design is common in my eyes.

So far.
 
Tom . . . I hear what you're saying re. "integrity", but let's get real. Are you telling me PJ Tomes doesn't have any integrity because he copies Scagel's designs? What of A G Russell's integrity in copying Jess Horn's folding boot knives? Or Steve Johnson's copies of Bob Loveless's designs? Or Kit Carson -vs- Brian Tighe? And who's integrity is on the line when comparing Howard Viele, Tom Anderson and Bob-T's work? These are just off the top of my head, I could go on if I reached for a knife book and flipped through it. I agree it is "bad form" to copy, but I'd like to be in the room when you go up to PJ Tomes and tell him he's got no integrity!

As someone said in an earlier post, when it comes to "shape" or "style" it cannot be protected. Heck, even something tangible like Michael Walker's linerlock mechanism isn't worth its patent paperwork. Sure, everyone recognises his role in the design, but hundreds of knifemakers around the world make linerlocks every day with no regard to its source.

With regard to the original post . . . I don't think it's such a great idea for a buyer to pass on another knifemakers design because most makers build their knives to a personal style. I once did some work for a collector who designed a hunter, drew out the EXACT profile, the precise size of the bolsters, and specified the handle material. He gave the design to six makers. They followed the specs to a T, and yet every knife looked different.

If it's a fixed blade one might be able to get away with a reasonable knife. But if it's a folder then it's another story. I'm sure most of the folder makers here will confirm that to produce a good folder one goes through a number of "prototypes" (mostly in order to perfect mechanism and movement). Very few can take a paper based folder design and produce a knife worthy of being called a custom piece. There's a reason why guys like Tom produce top class work, it's because they've perfected it through years of trial and error.

Regards, HILTON
 
There's nothing wrong with copying the classics like Scagel,Loveless,Searles,etc.

Sometimes similar knives are produced without intentionally copying, there are only so many ways to make a knife. For example, I've seen pics of a knife 20+ years old by a Kentucky knifemaker that had grey metallic handles with series of holes drilled in them. There is not that much new under the sun. It is the people that blantantly rip off new designs that lack ethics.
 
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