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Corrosion resistance
- Thread starter phwl
- Start date
I would also be interested in knowing some of your thoughts on the corrosion resistance of the steels that Spyderco uses. I am relatively new to Spydies and am not familiar with most of them. I would be particularly interested in info on how well 440V and VG-10 hold up as those are the steels that are in my Spydies that I will be carrying(Military for weekends and soon to have a Viele for school/work).
To answer part of the above question, I have never had any problems with G2 which is supposed to be the same as Gin-1 Steel and corrosion. I carried a knife with that in it for 3-4 years and treated it like crap and it only needed sharpened once in a while until it met an end one day that I couldn't do anything about. I also have had no trouble with ATS-34 unless it is bead blasted. My satin finish blades have done fine, but the BB ones tended to rust a bit when carried heavily in the woods.
[This message has been edited by tique (edited 12-13-2000).]
To answer part of the above question, I have never had any problems with G2 which is supposed to be the same as Gin-1 Steel and corrosion. I carried a knife with that in it for 3-4 years and treated it like crap and it only needed sharpened once in a while until it met an end one day that I couldn't do anything about. I also have had no trouble with ATS-34 unless it is bead blasted. My satin finish blades have done fine, but the BB ones tended to rust a bit when carried heavily in the woods.
[This message has been edited by tique (edited 12-13-2000).]
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in regrads to VG-10, I have used a Moran to cut limes and it showed no discoloration after 24 hours without cleaning.
That was pretty good corrosion resistance in my book.
That was pretty good corrosion resistance in my book.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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Hi Phwl. All of the steels that we use are relatively high carbon. Generally speaking, the more carbon, the greater the rust factor.
Generally sepaking, the more Chrome, the better the rust resistance.
Any of our knives used consistantly around salt water would need some type of regular maintenance.
We're playing around with other materials at this time that would work but no decisions at this time.
sal
Generally sepaking, the more Chrome, the better the rust resistance.
Any of our knives used consistantly around salt water would need some type of regular maintenance.
We're playing around with other materials at this time that would work but no decisions at this time.
sal
- Joined
- Nov 30, 1999
- Messages
- 423
I've had good luck with AUS 8 in the older Merlin that I use in the Florida Keys and evirons. This steel seems to take longer to show rust or corrosion than ATS-55 does.
As Sal said they do need some maintenance afterwards. I clean mine off with fresh water and then a liberal application of WD-40. The WD-40 removes any water that may be hiding where you can't see.
Vince
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Stay sharp and be Safe!
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That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche
As Sal said they do need some maintenance afterwards. I clean mine off with fresh water and then a liberal application of WD-40. The WD-40 removes any water that may be hiding where you can't see.
Vince
------------------
Stay sharp and be Safe!
------- ---- ---------
That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche
Thanks Sal, Tique, Anthony and Vince for your replies.
The carbon,chromium content of the metals are listed below
CPM440V 2.15,17.00
VG10 0.95,14.5
AUS6 0.55,13
AUS8 0.70,13
ATS34 1.05,14
ATS55 1,14
GIN-1 0.9,15.5
Going by Sal's comments, I guess AUS6 and AUS8 stand out as being particularly low C - is that why the Catcherman is AUS8?
GIN-1 and VG10 are also interesting since they have very high Cr. Are they more rust resistant that the ATS34 and ATS55?
How about CPM440V? How does it compare with say ATS55? It seems to have particularly high C and Cr?
Wouldn't it be great field test to get samples of each steel, place a drop of saltwater on each and then photograph them every few hours to see how fast they rust? Has anyone heard of such tests being done?
Sal - would it be possible to get scrap samples of the steels? I would be glad to do the above experiment.
The carbon,chromium content of the metals are listed below
CPM440V 2.15,17.00
VG10 0.95,14.5
AUS6 0.55,13
AUS8 0.70,13
ATS34 1.05,14
ATS55 1,14
GIN-1 0.9,15.5
Going by Sal's comments, I guess AUS6 and AUS8 stand out as being particularly low C - is that why the Catcherman is AUS8?
GIN-1 and VG10 are also interesting since they have very high Cr. Are they more rust resistant that the ATS34 and ATS55?
How about CPM440V? How does it compare with say ATS55? It seems to have particularly high C and Cr?
Wouldn't it be great field test to get samples of each steel, place a drop of saltwater on each and then photograph them every few hours to see how fast they rust? Has anyone heard of such tests being done?
Sal - would it be possible to get scrap samples of the steels? I would be glad to do the above experiment.
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The ratio of carbon to chromium in a steel gives you some idea of how corrosion resistant it will be. Basically, 1 part carbon ties up 10 parts chromium in a carbide. What you have left is the free chromium that prevents corrosion. That's sort of over simplified, but that's the general idea.
However, heat treatment makes a huge difference in how a steel will perform. Unfortunately, you can't really tell how corrosion resistant it will be just by looking at the composition of the steel.
For instance: Doing the above calculation, AUS-8 has 6% free chromium, while VG-10 has only 5%. You would think that AUS-8 is therefore more corrosion resistant, but in a post last year, Sal wrote that VG-10 is actually better.
You might want to check out this thread for some similar information:
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/000161.html
VG-10 and GIN-1 are probably both more corrosion resistant than either ATS-34 or ATS-55. I don't know if GIN-1 or VG-10 is better out of that group, or if ATS-34 is better than ATS-55. I've heard people say that ATS-34 is much more corrosion resistant than ATS-55, but I've also heard the exact opposite.
Who knows? ATS-55 has less carbon, but ATS-34 has more molybdenum, which is supposed to improve corrosion resistance.
CPM-440 is less corrosion resistant than ATS-55 or ATS-34. It just has so much carbon in it.
Spyderco has a test they do called the "Q-Fog". It's a lot like the test you describe.
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Cerulean
"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
However, heat treatment makes a huge difference in how a steel will perform. Unfortunately, you can't really tell how corrosion resistant it will be just by looking at the composition of the steel.
For instance: Doing the above calculation, AUS-8 has 6% free chromium, while VG-10 has only 5%. You would think that AUS-8 is therefore more corrosion resistant, but in a post last year, Sal wrote that VG-10 is actually better.
You might want to check out this thread for some similar information:
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/000161.html
VG-10 and GIN-1 are probably both more corrosion resistant than either ATS-34 or ATS-55. I don't know if GIN-1 or VG-10 is better out of that group, or if ATS-34 is better than ATS-55. I've heard people say that ATS-34 is much more corrosion resistant than ATS-55, but I've also heard the exact opposite.
CPM-440 is less corrosion resistant than ATS-55 or ATS-34. It just has so much carbon in it.
Spyderco has a test they do called the "Q-Fog". It's a lot like the test you describe.
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Cerulean
"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
My modest 2¢:
440-V is a CPM steel. Its vanadium is tightly bound to carbon, forming VC, which is mostly NOT dissolved while heat treating, is quite corrosion resistant and forms tiny grains within the steel matrix.
Due to atomic weight of V~50 and C=12, the 5.5% vanadium will permanently bind ~1.2%C into ~6.7% VC.
Therefore 440-V behaves "more like" a 1%C, 17%Cr steel regarding corrosion resistance.
This also is the reason for being "not so hard" but VERY abrasion resitant (and still "quite" brittle).
BTW: VC is about as hard as silicon carbide (used to sharpen) and is tightly bound to the steel matrix (steel does "wet" VC).
Happy sharpening
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D.T. UTZINGER
[This message has been edited by ZUT&ZUT (edited 12-21-2000).]
440-V is a CPM steel. Its vanadium is tightly bound to carbon, forming VC, which is mostly NOT dissolved while heat treating, is quite corrosion resistant and forms tiny grains within the steel matrix.
Due to atomic weight of V~50 and C=12, the 5.5% vanadium will permanently bind ~1.2%C into ~6.7% VC.
Therefore 440-V behaves "more like" a 1%C, 17%Cr steel regarding corrosion resistance.
This also is the reason for being "not so hard" but VERY abrasion resitant (and still "quite" brittle).
BTW: VC is about as hard as silicon carbide (used to sharpen) and is tightly bound to the steel matrix (steel does "wet" VC).
Happy sharpening
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D.T. UTZINGER
[This message has been edited by ZUT&ZUT (edited 12-21-2000).]
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Hmm... Yeah, you would think that vanadium carbides would free up the chromium so 440-V would be more corrosion resistant, but testing showed that 440-V still performs worse than ATS-34 and ATS-55. Check out this thread.
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Cerulean
"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
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Cerulean
"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
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Imho, none of the V-steels are very good regarding corrosion resistance compared to other true "stainless" steels.
I have had 440V blades rust, especially in nooks, crannies and rough, unpolished areas.
If bead blasted, Aus-8 and ATS-34 will develop rust sporadically, probably at spots of impurities. I had a polished ATS-34 custom blade pit nicely within the past few weeks. Oh well. better get a new Tuf Cloth, I guess.
VG-10 is the winner in my book. I cant make it rust in normal use. My Calypso Jr. lightweight in VG10 is my favorite lightweight gents folder and that is one reason.
I have had 440V blades rust, especially in nooks, crannies and rough, unpolished areas.
If bead blasted, Aus-8 and ATS-34 will develop rust sporadically, probably at spots of impurities. I had a polished ATS-34 custom blade pit nicely within the past few weeks. Oh well. better get a new Tuf Cloth, I guess.
VG-10 is the winner in my book. I cant make it rust in normal use. My Calypso Jr. lightweight in VG10 is my favorite lightweight gents folder and that is one reason.
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Yeah, I'd have to agree there.
The Calypso Jr. Ltwt. is probably the knife I carry and use most often. Extremely handy little thing and there are no signs of corrosion on the blade.
I have a serrated, 440V Native that has a bit of corrosion on it though. I think it happened after I carved a jack-o-lantern for Halloween. Some of the pumpkin goo stayed on the blade for several hours and a couple of gray spots formed in the recesses of the serrations. It's not at all a big deal though and I'd completely expect that kind of thing with an ATS steel.
The Calypso Jr. Ltwt. is probably the knife I carry and use most often. Extremely handy little thing and there are no signs of corrosion on the blade.
I have a serrated, 440V Native that has a bit of corrosion on it though. I think it happened after I carved a jack-o-lantern for Halloween. Some of the pumpkin goo stayed on the blade for several hours and a couple of gray spots formed in the recesses of the serrations. It's not at all a big deal though and I'd completely expect that kind of thing with an ATS steel.