corrosion resistance?

Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
188
Which is the most corrosion resistant?

154cm
440
AUS8
420

Could ya list in order which is the most to which is the least. Just trying to do some research.
 
I've learned that chrome increases corrosion resistance.

Out of those steels, 420J2 actually has the least chrome in it. Steel chart I looked up said 440A has the most chrome so I think it should be the most corrosion resistant.

Sooo.... Help me out here?
 
yea, just looked up the steel guide...I didnt know that chromium increased rust resistance, thanks.

looks like 440C is the winner...
 
Please don't take my word for it. Im just guessing. Hopefully people with much more actual steel knowledge will chime in.
 
Think 420J and 440A are pretty close in corrosion resistance. 420J has very little carbon (0.15% for 420J vs. 0.7% for 440A). So you get more corrosion resistance from the chrome you got.

It is indeed the chromium that provides corrosion resistance. It becomes part of the oxide layer and makes it tightly adhering to the steel, thus providing a barrier to water and oxygen, the co-reactants with the iron in the chemical reaction we call corrosion.

I think builderman has the order correct, assuming that hkbladelawhk was actually talking about 440A.
 
In order to learn something...It's the amount of chrome and carbon. The more chrome and the less carbon the more corrosion resistant?

Are there any clear mathematical guidelines as to how to evaluate the corrosion resistance of a steel based on chrome and carbon?
 
OK, in order to confuse things a little further I looked up Spydercos steel chart and the element information. From that available information I understood that it's mainly the chrome (Joe Talmadge says in the Steel FAQ that it's the free chrome thats not tied by carbon or something...) that increases corrosion resistance.

...but also
copper increases corrosion resistance,
molybdenum increases corrosion resistance,
nitrogen increases corrosion resistance.

I found no further information as to their contribution/effect to corrosion resistance other than that they increase it.

So from there I made a list of steels and amount of elements according to Spyderco steel chart:

Steel..........C%.........Cr%.........Cr/C.........Mo%.........Cu%.........N%
420J2.........0.45.........13.........29.............0................-............-
440A..........0.67.........17.........25.............0.75............-............-
AUS6..........0.60.........13.7......23.............0................-............-
440B..........0.85.........17.........20.............0.75............-............-
AUS8..........0.72.........13.7......19.............0.20............-............-
440C..........1.07.........17.........16.............0.75............-............-
154CM........1.05.........14.........13.............4.00............-............-

From here I can conclude that according to carbon and chrome 420J2 does indeed seem the most corrosion resistant and the 154CM the least. But 154CM seems to have quite a bit of the molystuff. Apparently according to better informed people 154CM is not at the top of this list so it can't help too much with corrosion resistance so I'm left with chrome and carbon.


am I even close?
 
Based on my usage and a few informal tests I've done with old, broken blades, 420 is the most corrosion resistant. I'm not educated enough on steel elemental info to tell you anything more than that though.
 
OK, in order to confuse things a little further I looked up Spydercos steel chart and the element information. From that available information I understood that it's mainly the chrome (Joe Talmadge says in the Steel FAQ that it's the free chrome thats not tied by carbon or something...) that increases corrosion resistance.

...but also
copper increases corrosion resistance,
molybdenum increases corrosion resistance,
nitrogen increases corrosion resistance.

I found no further information as to their contribution/effect to corrosion resistance other than that they increase it.

So from there I made a list of steels and amount of elements according to Spyderco steel chart:

Steel..........C%.........Cr%.........Cr/C.........Mo%.........Cu%.........N%
420J2.........0.45.........13.........29.............0................-............-
440A..........0.67.........17.........25.............0.75............-............-
AUS6..........0.60.........13.7......23.............0................-............-
440B..........0.85.........17.........20.............0.75............-............-
AUS8..........0.72.........13.7......19.............0.20............-............-
440C..........1.07.........17.........16.............0.75............-............-
154CM........1.05.........14.........13.............4.00............-............-

From here I can conclude that according to carbon and chrome 420J2 does indeed seem the most corrosion resistant and the 154CM the least. But 154CM seems to have quite a bit of the molystuff. Apparently according to better informed people 154CM is not at the top of this list so it can't help too much with corrosion resistance so I'm left with chrome and carbon.
am I even close?

Well, you're certainly in the ballpark.

What you are trying to do is put a barrier between the steel and the environment (oxygen and water). All steel oxidizes (corrodes). The difference between stainless steel and carbon steel is what happens once it corrodes. With carbon steel, the oxide layer is imperfect and has "holes" in it. Water and oxygen can get through the layer, react with the iron and the corrosion continues. With stainless steel, that first oxide layer that is only a few atoms thick has less imperfections, and it adheres better to the steel. Thus you have a layer of protection between the steel and the outside environment.

It is chromium in the oxide matrix that makes the difference. When you have carbon and chromium together, the carbon can react with the chromium to form chromium carbides. Chromium in that form is not free to form part of the oxide matrix, and the corrosion resistance drops.

Molybdinum opperates somewhat differently. It has the greatest impact on reducing pitting corrosion, as opposed to surface corrosion.

This is the first I have heard of copper reducing corrosion in steel. If you have a chunk of copper in contact with the knife it could act as a saccrificial anode. But that ain't happening within a chunk of steel.

It's not that nitrogen increases corrosion resistance, it's that nitrogen replaces carbon. And carbon has a negative impact on corrosion resistance. So it is the lack of carbon, not the presence of nitrogen that helps in a nitrogen alloy steel.

As a materials engineer who often works with corrosion problems in aircraft, I usually stop at Chromium and carbon content. But I give extra credit if the alloy has Moly. No points for copper. But the honest truth is that I look in a table and determine the corrosion resistance of the alloy at that temper and make my recommendations from there.

I should also add that corrosion is a funny beastie. It is not uncommon to put two identical samples into identical conditioins and get different results. Corrosion is one of those things where you always have to say YMMV. Gotta remember that corrosion is a very complex chemical reaction. So even when you think everything is the same, it ain't.

Hope that helps.
Knarf the engineer
 
OK, in order to confuse things a little further I looked up Spydercos steel chart and the element information. From that available information I understood that it's mainly the chrome (Joe Talmadge says in the Steel FAQ that it's the free chrome thats not tied by carbon or something...) that increases corrosion resistance.

...but also
copper increases corrosion resistance,
molybdenum increases corrosion resistance,
nitrogen increases corrosion resistance.

I found no further information as to their contribution/effect to corrosion resistance other than that they increase it.

So from there I made a list of steels and amount of elements according to Spyderco steel chart:

Steel..........C%.........Cr%.........Cr/C.........Mo%.........Cu%.........N%
420J2.........0.45.........13.........29.............0................-............-
440A..........0.67.........17.........25.............0.75............-............-
AUS6..........0.60.........13.7......23.............0................-............-
440B..........0.85.........17.........20.............0.75............-............-
AUS8..........0.72.........13.7......19.............0.20............-............-
440C..........1.07.........17.........16.............0.75............-............-
154CM........1.05.........14.........13.............4.00............-............-

From here I can conclude that according to carbon and chrome 420J2 does indeed seem the most corrosion resistant and the 154CM the least. But 154CM seems to have quite a bit of the molystuff. Apparently according to better informed people 154CM is not at the top of this list so it can't help too much with corrosion resistance so I'm left with chrome and carbon.


am I even close?


With the original 4 you referenced, I'd rank them 420, 440, AUS 8, 154CM, greatest to least. Copper does indeed help with corrosion resistance, but I'm not sure of the mechanism. As knarfeng said, molybdenum helps as well, but is generally associated with the 300 series stainlesses for pitting corrosion resistance. In the case of 154CM, I believe it is there more for resistance to softening at high temperatures. 154CM was originally a hot work steel. Chromium (as well as most other alloying elements) serves more than one purpose sometimes. It is added to increase corrosion resistance, and also for wear resistance. For corrosion resistance, it has to be "free" chromium, meaning it has not combined with carbon to form carbides. For wear resistance, the carbides are desirable because they are very hard and wear resistant particle suspended in the steel. The ratio of chromium to carbon, and the temperatures used in heat treatment determine how much chromium is free and how much is in carbides. Molybdenum also increases toughness, or at least prevents loss of toughness when other elements are added. I've heard that nitrogen was used during chromium shortages during WWII by the germans, but exactly how it reduces corrosion I dont know.
 
I was talking about 440C, not 440A. Sorry for the delayed response. But yea, those steel charts can be confusing...
 
yea, just looked up the steel guide...I didnt know that chromium increased rust resistance, thanks.

looks like 440C is the winner...

440C varies widely. Many manufacturers don't heat treated properly, especially those from China. 440C by Benchmade and Entrek are the best productions out there now.
 
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