council tool metal wedges

[BG_Farmer]

I put an update in the Hudson bay thread, but if what I saw with the kerf and wedge is typical, I don't know how more don't come loose!

Wish I had pictures, but it is really simple: the kerf is roughly 1/8" wide, and the wedge is just barely wider at the top; very little of the wedge is in contact with the kerf. The wedge works out, and only friction holds the head on. Axes with longer eyes or bigger wedges might last longer, but not too long.

Anyway, has anyone else seen this setup? I am not picking on Council, because it is really a nice little axe and I'd rather put the head on myself, anyhow, but I can't help but wonder whether this hasn't exacerbated the Hudson bay situation in particular. I saw some reviewers also had problems with the boys axe which is the same handle, possibly with similar kerf and wedge.

Just to repeat, not a big deal for anyone to fix, just odd. I see the velvicuts get wood wedge and round metal combination, just like my fancy Truper, so I guess it is either a cost thing or some government acquisition guideline...

 

[300Six]

Too small an eye and too short a length is difficult to counteract! How I wish I was a fly on the wall to overhear manufacturer meetings between their 'fashion marketing' dept and the 'experienced engineer' side of things.
But you have taken this to heart and are not going to quit with your love of HBs. Can you carefully ream the eye (Dremel tool?) to more exaggerate the flair from front to back? And can you be infinitely more precise in the fitting of a haft? Thick softwood wedges are merely a convenient lock and space filler on most axes but with HBs there is obviously a lot more fussiness involved, and a good hardwood wedge. Those Euro hollow conical metal wedges (which exert outward pressure in all directions) might just be the ticket for you (I'm no fan of steel wedges under normal circumstances) once there is an already tight-fitting haft in place. Don't give up!
I like the look of HBs too and am awaiting to hear of a miracle cure for the inherent flaw in their design.

 

[BG_Farmer]

Too small an eye and too short a length is difficult to counteract! How I wish I was a fly on the wall to overhear manufacturer meetings between their 'fashion marketing' dept and the 'experienced engineer' side of things.
But you have taken this to heart and are not going to quit with your love of HBs. Can you carefully ream the eye (Dremel tool?) to more exaggerate the flair from front to back? And can you be infinitely more precise in the fitting of a haft? Thick softwood wedges are merely a convenient lock and space filler on most axes but with HBs there is obviously a lot more fussiness involved, and a good hardwood wedge. Those Euro hollow conical metal wedges (which exert outward pressure in all directions) might just be the ticket for you (I'm no fan of steel wedges under normal circumstances) once there is an already tight-fitting haft in place. Don't give up!
I like the look of HBs too and am awaiting to hear of a miracle cure for the inherent flaw in their design.

I might end up being the Don Quixote of the hudson bay pattern, but that isn't my point here. There was little to no wedging action going on, just the top step of the metal wedge was even touching the kerf. Yes, the short eye is a relative weakness, but it deserves a fighting chance, don't you think? Given the cool look and handiness of the pattern, I could live with a little redo every few years. I don't think weeks or months of moderate use should cause a loose head even with the constraints of the design...

PS. I just went with the wood wedge, shortened to fill the kerf bottom up. I like the idea of the conical wedge if needed, thanks; will probably see when/if needed. I did set the head down on a pretty good "shoulder", too. We will see!

 

[cityofthesouth]

The HB is a design where I would do everything possible to make sure I had wood bulging out the top, but done right, wouldn't turn me off at all. I think you're right that a poor wedge job and possibly a string of bad wedge jobs could exacerbate a perceived weakness in the design. It's a light duty tool to begin with, then it's poorly hung, and then someone buys it because of its looks rather than it's capabilities and you have a recipe for failure. So there is more than design to blame, to include CT's less than impressive wedge work. I bet you've learned a lot in this process and will be served well by your HB in the end.

 

[Hacked]

When fitting handles in to my axes I do a lot of test fitting along the way. I leave the handle as tight as possible taking advantage of the fact that the kerf will compress as it travels through the eye and seating it as tightly as possible without a wedge. Making sure as much of the wood bellow the kerf contacts the eye as possible is important. Doing this your should only need a very thin wedge and IMO this is a sign that you have a good fit for the eye. I know others are fans of thick wedges, but this is my personal preference.

I always cover the wedge with BLO before driving it in. This let's it set in deeper and easier and once it drys acts as a slight adhesive. I also started to leave my wedges a little longer than needed and tapered slightly so that when driven into the kerf the eye shaves the sides of the wedge down and you are left with a perfect fit.

The last thing I like to do is leave a good bit of the haft hanging above the eye. This will swell over top the eye like COTS pointed out helping to lock the head on even if it comes lose. It also means that if the head comes lose you have options. You can drive the wedge further if you are in the field to tighten the head back up. It will also make removing the wedge to be replaced with a larger one much much easier.

I believe taking extra care to really fit a HB head to a haft with great care would result in a very serviceable axe with little to no issues. Unfortunately with all of the craze surrounding them I can't seem to find one for anything resembling a decent price.

 

[BG_Farmer]

I appreciate the responses, and most of them agree with what I'd already done to fix my sons HB, and it is holding well for now.

Beyond the Hudson Bay pattern, however, I'm interested in how council's metal wedge performs on other axes. I can believe the kerf width works OK on larger axes (with larger, longer metal wedges), but I can't believe it doesn't cause some problems on the boys axes and hatchets!

Basically, I dont understand why they use this system, beyond cost especially labor, but I know many people would be much more upset than I with a loose head, so it seems like a false economy... That cost is a factor is obvious, since the velvicuts get a first rate hanging, and even the FSs boys axe gets a plastic wedge, which is considered a step up!

Anyway, I wish the would just sell the head and handle unhafted (? ). Both are quite nice tool components!

 

[thunderstick]

I have the 19" Council Tool HB axe. I did not have any problems with it till my brother insisted on throwing it. Then head slipped a little. I talked Margo into selling me some handles for it. Then I dry fitted it very tightly. Next I put some epoxy on the wood handle and seated it--epoxy on the wood center wedge and drove it home. I always slightly taper my center wedge from end to end so it curls the wood when driven in. I insist on a tight end to end fit and glue on the center wedge so everything is laminated together from every direction. The epoxy or gorilla glue on the wedge lubricates it so it goes in easily and gets very tight. Then I cut the handle off about a 1/4" above the eye. The next day after the epoxy has set up I drive in a small metal cross wedge on a 45 degree angle so it don't split the wood out the ends. The metal wedge drives really hard because everything's already very tight. Since then its never even hinted at moving.

I would not mess around with a questionable fit--do it right and then use the tool without worries. The HB with a proper fit is a great belt axe. You can choke up behind the blade for good control and you can use it as a carpenter hatchet -- speaking of which--they don't have any more of an eye than a HB for hard usage--yup its all in giving it a professional fit.

 

[300Six]

When fitting handles in to my axes I do a lot of test fitting along the way. I leave the handle as tight as possible taking advantage of the fact that the kerf will compress as it travels through the eye and seating it as tightly as possible without a wedge. Making sure as much of the wood bellow the kerf contacts the eye as possible is important. Doing this your should only need a very thin wedge and IMO this is a sign that you have a good fit for the eye. I know others are fans of thick wedges, but this is my personal preference.

I always cover the wedge with BLO before driving it in. This let's it set in deeper and easier and once it drys acts as a slight adhesive. I also started to leave my wedges a little longer than needed and tapered slightly so that when driven into the kerf the eye shaves the sides of the wedge down and you are left with a perfect fit.

The last thing I like to do is leave a good bit of the haft hanging above the eye. This will swell over top the eye like COTS pointed out helping to lock the head on even if it comes lose. It also means that if the head comes loose you have options. You can drive the wedge further if you are in the field to tighten the head back up. It will also make removing the wedge to be replaced with a larger one much much easier.

I believe taking extra care to really fit a HB head to a haft with great care would result in a very serviceable axe with little to no issues. Unfortunately with all of the craze surrounding them I can't seem to find one for anything resembling a decent price.

I almost entirely agree with this. I've always figured that wedges should be at least as hard as the handle material. A piece of metal (truss tie, shelf bracket etc) same thickness as the kerf (and left sticking out so it can be removed with a pair of pliers (if you have to)), inside the kerf while fitting the handle, enables making a very precise non-pinch fit which then facilitates easy starting (and driving) of a thin tapered wedge. My wedges are 10-15 degrees rather than the 20-25 angle of store bought jobs. Trim the pointy end of the wedge so it's same thickness as the kerf and cut it about 1/4 in. or so longer than the kerf depth (which should be most (3/4?) of the way through the eye). Then you'll know precisely when it's seated (ie bottoms out). Can't accidentally split a haft that way either.
Decades ago I always cut finished hangs flush with the eye but via discussions on this forum have concluded that leaving an uncompressed 1/4 inch (or so) sticking out is way better.

 

[Hacked]

I almost entirely agree with this. I've always figured that wedges should be at least as hard as the handle material. A piece of metal (truss tie, shelf bracket etc) same thickness as the kerf (and left sticking out so it can be removed with a pair of pliers (if you have to)), inside the kerf while fitting the handle, enables making a very precise non-pinch fit which then facilitates easy starting (and driving) of a thin tapered wedge. My wedges are 10-15 degrees rather than the 20-25 angle of store bought jobs. Trim the pointy end of the wedge so it's same thickness as the kerf and cut it about 1/4 in. or so longer than the kerf depth (which should be most (3/4?) of the way through the eye). Then you'll know precisely when it's seated (ie bottoms out). Can't accidentally split a haft that way either.
Decades ago I always cut finished hangs flush with the eye but via discussions on this forum have concluded that leaving an uncompressed 1/4 inch (or so) sticking out is way better.

Sorry to derail the tread I just wanted to clarify. The kerf is only pinched shut at the bottom of the eye where it is most narrow. This happens when first placing the head on the haft. The kerf then opens up as the head is seated since the eye widens towards the top. Once the head is seated the kerf is completly open. This allows the haft to fit the eye very well before the wedge is driven in the first place. Of course if the eye is not drifted then this will not work.

This is the method I've come to prefer based on the hafting jobs that I have done. I'm by no means an expert.

 

[300Six]

Sorry to derail the tread I just wanted to clarify. The kerf is only pinched shut at the bottom of the eye where it is most narrow. This happens when first placing the head on the haft. The kerf then opens up as the head is seated since the eye widens towards the top. Once the head is seated the kerf is completly open. This allows the haft to fit the eye very well before the wedge is driven in the first place. Of course if the eye is not drifted then this will not work.

This is the method I've come to prefer based on the hafting jobs that I have done. I'm by no means an expert.

Whooh boy! It has been rare for me to have a store-bought haft that is an immediate fit. Always been rasping, carving, filing and careful fitting involved. Darn things have always pinch-closed while trying to do this. Could be the Canuck and Swede heads I've done (embarrassed to say that I've never in all these years tangled with a made in USA head) don't jive with the standard eye sizes of USA-spec handles I've bought. This has been going on for 40 years so it's not a fluke!

 

[quinton]

Sorry to derail the tread I just wanted to clarify. The kerf is only pinched shut at the bottom of the eye where it is most narrow. This happens when first placing the head on the haft. The kerf then opens up as the head is seated since the eye widens towards the top. Once the head is seated the kerf is completly open. This allows the haft to fit the eye very well before the wedge is driven in the first place. Of course if the eye is not drifted then this will not work.

This is the method I've come to prefer based on the hafting jobs that I have done. I'm by no means an expert.

Spot on the way I like to do it. I even like to see a little space all the way around the top of the eye before the wedge is driven.

I drift the haft from the eye several times to get a perfect fit, and proper alignment before it is wedged.