Council Tool Vevicut

DeadboxHero

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
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I have a few council tool axes, I love em.

Wanted to know if anyone had any first hand knowledge with the 5160 steel used on the premium line.

Also with the eye having ribs, how is the difficulty when rehanging.

Thanks
 
I've hung 3 or 4 vintage Kellys with ribs in the eye and it hasn't really caused any difficulty. I have two CT Velvicuts, a Hudson Bay and a Dayton. They hold their edge very well. But to tell you the truth, they don't really get a hard workout.

[URL=http://s810.photobucket.com/user/doubleott/media/Council%20Velvicut%20Plumb%20Cedar/KellyPerfectvsCouncilVelicut006.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s810.photobucket.com/user/doubleott/media/Kelly%20Perfect%20vs%20Council%20Velvicut/KellyPerfectvsCouncilVelicut003.jpg.html][/URL]

Tom
 
Also with the eye having ribs, how is the difficulty when rehanging.

It is harder to hang an axe with ridges in the eye. At the factory they knew the specs for the eye and made the haft accordingly. The person re-handling an axe doesn't have that advantage. We have to fit the haft to the eye with a lot of on & off work. The ridges in the eye pinch the kerf closed and 'spring load' that haft in the eye during the fitting process. It makes it harder to test fit the axe to the haft.

Gently shimming or wedging the kerf during the fitting process makes the work easier. If you can find a haft that isn't kerfed yet then that is best when working with an axe that has eye ridges.
 
Quick question: what are the advantages/disadvantages of a Hudson Bay style axe head? Would it make for a good backpacking hatchet? Sorry, I'm new to the axe world and sorry for the threadjack.
 
Should be fine. Some say the head gets loose due to less contact with the haft compared to other patterns. The long beard is nice for choking up on the handle for fine kindling and carving.

Thx for the info guys.
 
I kinda am on the fence about the ribs. I am sure they help to keep heads in place, but my experience with them mirrors Square_peg's and another thing I've noticed is that they sort of lock you into whatever track your on when you first insert the handle. The ribs create these little channels in the wood and if the handle needs a little tweaking then the ribs fight you. The head always wants to go onto the stick the same way. Ultimately, it's annoying, but having only done a couple of them things turned out fine, so I guess they aren't that big an issue. Considering how many axes we all have that don't have ribs, I feel pretty confident that they are unnecessary - though I believe they do perform their intended function.
 
Ribs in the eye was an idea first brought to life by Mann Edge Tool, then copied by Kelly and really put into play by them on their Woodslasher, Flint Edge, and Perfect lines. Mann Edge got away from it as it was an added expense in the dies and in handle fitting process. Kelly was after the "head won't come loose" side of the advertising, as this was right around the time the axe was losing sales and popularity to the chainsaw, and Kelly needed every angle it could get.

The ribs are a PITA when refitting a new handle as stated above, there is no other way around it. Overall effectiveness when it comes down to it is questionable as well.

For the other question about the Hudson Bay style pattern, it has adv and disadv just like anything else. Adv - lighter head weight, nice wide poll for its size, looks different so its "cool". Disadvantges - less handle to head contact so more like to come off/get loose easier, especially with hard use. Poll is small, so less beat area if needed. I use one as my main yard work axe for basic tree limbs, roots, etc. I find a mid 20 inch is a great size as I can handle it with one hand like a hatchet, but then can double down if i need it for a slightly larger project. Nice overall weight so im not bogged down all day. Overall I like them, but for misc tasks, not out in the woods working.

Hope this helps.

Thanks!
 
Wanted to know if anyone had any first hand knowledge with the 5160 steel used on the premium line.

As far as I can tell it's a good steel, well-treated, and certainly the equal of any of the really good steels and treatments of the Golden Age. A Velvicut Bad Axe is beside the front door. It's my wife's favourite axe. I tend to grab my old DB if I'm heading out to smack something. To me the Bad Axe feels small, which is kind of the idea (and not a reflection on the steel in any event).
 
The one i have sharpened for a friend had relatively soft steel so it was easy to resharpen but has held the edge I put on it very well. I would be confident in the steel and hanging.
 
As far as I can tell it's a good steel, well-treated, and certainly the equal of any of the really good steels and treatments of the Golden Age. A Velvicut Bad Axe is beside the front door. It's my wife's favourite axe. I tend to grab my old DB if I'm heading out to smack something. To me the Bad Axe feels small, which is kind of the idea (and not a reflection on the steel in any event).

No, no it isn't.
 
No, no it isn't.

And with that, I'll stand corrected. :)

I'll say that I take a Velvicut out and it does a day's work and doesn't slow me down. I'm not gonna knock somebody down to get a good-usin' vintage axe if the Council axe will do the work. If I want a good-usin' vintage axe I'll buy one (or a shed-ful, apparently :rolleyes:). Out of the whole shebang I've only got one I'd call "collectible" and won't actually use (because it's NOS).

Personally -- and speaking only for myself -- Council axes are the "equal" of older good axes because they will do the work I ask of them. Because I use them first and display them second, I tend to be pretty utilitarian when approaching an axe: I've got more than I "need" so I can afford to please myself. I'm going to use it, sometimes in a good cause abuse it, and I expect it to take that and keep smilin' and not ask me to spend too much time in upkeep.

I also believe in supporting companies that are still making good product. Nobody's making any more vintage axes. Some are making products I don't personally think I want, so I don't buy them (though I keep an eye on them because if they ever do, I'll be picking one up). Council is still making axes in North America. I genuinely wish we still had a Canadian company making axes. The Garant Canadienne is the closest thing we have, and that's from offshore. If someone wants to set up a forge and start the Maple Leaf Axe Co. I'll be at the front of the line waiting to buy one -- more than one if they're actually good axes!
 
Lots of products will do the work u ask of them, similar to other products. Say for example, a Ford Fiesta will get you from point A to point B the same as its family cousin the Jaguar, but the ride itself is quite different in many aspects. We can talk about what makes us feel good and happy, but when the inspection is over the products are different entirely. As stated in another thread, the older vintage aces are in a class of their own compared to what is offered today.
 
a Ford Fiesta will get you from point A to point B the same as its family cousin the Jaguar, but the ride itself is quite different in many aspects.

My dad has worked for Jaguar for the last 25 years. Jaguar and Range Rover are now owned by Tata Motors of India, and I can tell you there is certainly a difference in ride comfort between a Jag and the Tata bus I traveled 3887 miles in last summer!

Council is still making axes in North America... If someone wants to set up a forge and start the Maple Leaf Axe Co. I'll be at the front of the line waiting to buy one -- more than one if they're actually good axes!

I have just invested quite a bit of money in enough of my favourite high carbon blade steel to make 7 or 8 boys/cruiser axes. Unfortunately, I live on the wrong continent as anyone who would want to buy any of them.

Back on topic, I fully support buying products from your own country otherwise your economy and culture gets dry rot. So support American jobs and get a regular or FSS line Council axe, I'm not convinced there is any major metallurgical benefit from the underhardened 5160 steel in the Velvicut line.
 
I have only rehung one axe with ridges in the eye. It was an unmarked Jersey pattern, so there was already a lot of contact between the wood and eye. It fought me the whole way, and I spent most of the day pounding on that thing trying to get the head to seat, but it didn't wanna budge. I finally broke/split the bottom of the haft, and had to patch it back together. If I ever have to rehang it, I'll either grind the ridges out of the eye, or use a hydraulic bearing press to press the head on in a more controlled manner.

In theory, 5160 should have much more impact resistance/toughness compared to plain carbon steel (especially hypereutectoid/high carbon) at the same hardness. Or, you could leave it a couple points Rc harder and still have the same toughness. However, if they temper them down to the lower 50's Rockwell, there's really no point. I'd rather have a nice vintage head at 57-60 Rc than about any steel at 52. If I came across a nice head made from 5160 for cheap, part of me would be tempted to send it to Tim Zowada, and have him re-heat treat it to like 60-61. Then I think it would make a superior tool.
 
I'd rather have a nice vintage head at 57-60 Rc than about any steel at 52. If I came across a nice head made from 5160 for cheap, part of me would be tempted to send it to Tim Zowada, and have him re-heat treat it to like 60-61. Then I think it would make a superior tool.

Exactly, if I had a blade in 5160 tempered down below 56, I'd consider re-heat-treating myself. Even if you didn't have a forge, with a simple steel like 5160 you can do a decent job just with a pair of blow torches and some appropriate quenching oil.

Actually, when it comes to steel for axes I'm mostly concerned about two things. Firstly, is it hard enough. Secondly, does the steel have a fine grain? This is why vanadium in small amounts is such a nice addition to an axe steel, it really refines the grain and helps the edge stability. You basically want something that you can take to a fine edge with a good enough combination of strength and toughness to keep a fine working edge.
 
I'd rather have a nice vintage head at 57-60 Rc than about any steel at 52. If I came across a nice head made from 5160 for cheap, part of me would be tempted to send it to Tim Zowada, and have him re-heat treat it to like 60-61. Then I think it would make a superior tool.

60 RC is too hard for an axe. It's gonna chip. Plus it's no longer fileable. 60 is fine for a knife that will be honed, not filed. 57 or 58 is the hardest I would want an axe. 54 is the softest that I would want. A consistent 55-57 would be perfect.
 
60 RC is too hard for an axe. It's gonna chip. Plus it's no longer fileable. 60 is fine for a knife that will be honed, not filed. 57 or 58 is the hardest I would want an axe. 54 is the softest that I would want. A consistent 55-57 would be perfect.

Sounds about right. I am starting to think the regular CTs are mostly 4140, though they only specify that for the FSS, and that if it is hardened to 55 or so, is entirely serviceable. From reading these threads, it doesn't seem like the 5160 is really necessary, but then neither are a lot of the exotic alloys used in knives! My only concern is that some CTs appear to be very soft, so there may be some larger than desired variations in treatment. I guess where I don't care about the cosmetic features of the velvicuts, I would rather risk a lemon regular for 1/4 or 1/3 price...make sure it is good and redo the the handle myself:).
 
60 RC is too hard for an axe. It's gonna chip. Plus it's no longer fileable..

I have one old double bit that I'd swear is at least 59 to 60 or more. And yes, a file will hardly even scratch it. I don't use it much (since I prefer a chainsaw for big jobs), but it hasn't chipped yet. Tougher alloys should easily be able to be tempered a few points harder and still maintain adequate toughness. Personal preference, I'd rather use power tools and hones for sharpening anyway. But for the most part, I don't disagree with you.
 
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