Council Tools Amazment, Thoughts and Questions

[Balls Deep]

I have recently been taking more of an interest in axes from knives and through scavenger hunting became really interested in Council axes. My first axe I purchased was a Wetterlings hunters axe, and while a great axe, as time went by I wasn't necessarily sold that the $100 a spent on it at the time was really necessary to get good performance. I was interested in American axes and the big 3 companies that tend to come up are Council, Snow and Nealley, and Ames True American. I thought I'd post some thoughts and opinions on these brands as these questions seem to come up often.

Ames: My local Bi-Mart sells these and the overall fit and finish of them seems to be quite poor, for the price it's odd that these axes are in the same category as Council's basic line.

Snow and Nealley: Had Chinese heads several years ago but as far as I can tell have been made in the USA again fully since 2014? Seem to get good reviews though it seems like their quality control has needed to be somewhat dialed in, slightly more expensive than what I was looking for but also come with sheaths.

Council: Blown away by the fit and finish on their less expensive axes. I bought the boys axe from a forestry supplier store for $25 and the fit and finish was miles ahead of Ames. On the website the non-velvicut axes are listed as "tool steel." I called up their customer service and verified that the basic line of axes are 1060 and the boys axe specifically is 1080 as it meets forestry standards.

Question: A lot of axe fans recommend finding classic axe heads and re-hafting them as the carbon steel in older heads is generally harder than current heads. With ISO 9001 standards though, I'm wondering if the hardness difference in a modern quality controlled axe would be noticeably different than a vintage axe head, any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Balls

 

[Hickory n steel]

I have recently been taking more of an interest in axes from knives and through scavenger hunting became really interested in Council axes. My first axe I purchased was a Wetterlings hunters axe, and while a great axe, as time went by I wasn't necessarily sold that the $100 a spent on it at the time was really necessary to get good performance. I was interested in American axes and the big 3 companies that tend to come up are Council, Snow and Nealley, and Ames True American. I thought I'd post some thoughts and opinions on these brands as these questions seem to come up often.

Ames: My local Bi-Mart sells these and the overall fit and finish of them seems to be quite poor, for the price it's odd that these axes are in the same category as Council's basic line.

Snow and Nealley: Had Chinese heads several years ago but as far as I can tell have been made in the USA again fully since 2014? Seem to get good reviews though it seems like their quality control has needed to be somewhat dialed in, slightly more expensive than what I was looking for but also come with sheaths.

Council: Blown away by the fit and finish on their less expensive axes. I bought the boys axe from a forestry supplier store for $25 and the fit and finish was miles ahead of Ames. On the website the non-velvicut axes are listed as "tool steel." I called up their customer service and verified that the basic line of axes are 1060 and the boys axe specifically is 1080 as it meets forestry standards.

Question: A lot of axe fans recommend finding classic axe heads and re-hafting them as the carbon steel in older heads is generally harder than current heads. With ISO 9001 standards though, I'm wondering if the hardness difference in a modern quality controlled axe would be noticeably different than a vintage axe head, any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Balls

Those with enough axes for their file test to really say something will tell you the steal really is generally better with pre 1970's and often miles ahead with a lot of axes from the 40's and back.
With my limited experience I've been happy with some modern stuff comparatively but there's also things like overall better design and profile that's better with vintage American axes.
Convex cheeks throw chips better most times.

Now depending on your needs / uses I'd wager some quality modern stuff may be perfectly fine for you.

 

[A17]

The newest axe I have is probably 30+ years old, so I don't have experience to comment on new ones, but, all the axes I have file the same with the exception of a VERY hard 90's Woodings Verona. Ames axes seem to be low quality, Snow and Nealley are an unknown, but there is a thread on here that deals with flawed Council axes. The Councils are always replaced free of charge and the replacements are flawless. All that being said, I like vintage axes because A. I love bringing tools to life. B. Its fun to hunt them out. C. You meet interesting people looking for them. It all comes down to personal preference, though. Be forewarned, you can't just have one axe.

 

[jake pogg]

Question: A lot of axe fans recommend finding classic axe heads and re-hafting them as the carbon steel in older heads is generally harder than current heads.

This is a mistake to equate Hardness with any particular steel alloy.
Hardness is strictly related to the Heat-treatment of any given alloy.

In other words,a vintage axe-head forged out of (mystery)alloy can be hard,or way too hard,or soft,or entirely too soft,et c.,et c.,depending on how it was Heat-Treated.

A brand new CT head,forged out of AISI 1060,can be an absolute ditto of the above.So no comparing is possible.

And,btw,AISI 1060,and 1080, actually ARE the so-called "carbon",or more specific "plain carbon" alloys,as the Carbon is their main alloying element
It is indicated by the "1" in the beginning of their code.

 

[garry3]

I have recently been taking more of an interest in axes from knives and through scavenger hunting became really interested in Council axes. My first axe I purchased was a Wetterlings hunters axe, and while a great axe, as time went by I wasn't necessarily sold that the $100 a spent on it at the time was really necessary to get good performance. I was interested in American axes and the big 3 companies that tend to come up are Council, Snow and Nealley, and Ames True American. I thought I'd post some thoughts and opinions on these brands as these questions seem to come up often.

Ames: My local Bi-Mart sells these and the overall fit and finish of them seems to be quite poor, for the price it's odd that these axes are in the same category as Council's basic line.

Snow and Nealley: Had Chinese heads several years ago but as far as I can tell have been made in the USA again fully since 2014? Seem to get good reviews though it seems like their quality control has needed to be somewhat dialed in, slightly more expensive than what I was looking for but also come with sheaths.

Council: Blown away by the fit and finish on their less expensive axes. I bought the boys axe from a forestry supplier store for $25 and the fit and finish was miles ahead of Ames. On the website the non-velvicut axes are listed as "tool steel." I called up their customer service and verified that the basic line of axes are 1060 and the boys axe specifically is 1080 as it meets forestry standards.

Question: A lot of axe fans recommend finding classic axe heads and re-hafting them as the carbon steel in older heads is generally harder than current heads. With ISO 9001 standards though, I'm wondering if the hardness difference in a modern quality controlled axe would be noticeably different than a vintage axe head, any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Balls

Its an interesting topic. And I have heard it speculated that the older heads that had a flawed heat treat were probably long ago discarded. It's been my experience that older heads are all over the place on the hardness scale. The older they are the less consistent, I believe. They run all the way from to hard to file to being to soft for my taste. With some manufactures I pretty well know what I am going to be getting though.
The workmanship is the thing for me that sets the vintage stuff apart from the modern. They are thin where they should be thin and thick where they should be thick. No ugly grinding. No flat cheeks. There just isn't any comparison.

 

[phantomknives]

I have recently been taking more of an interest in axes from knives and through scavenger hunting became really interested in Council axes. My first axe I purchased was a Wetterlings hunters axe, and while a great axe, as time went by I wasn't necessarily sold that the $100 a spent on it at the time was really necessary to get good performance. I was interested in American axes and the big 3 companies that tend to come up are Council, Snow and Nealley, and Ames True American. I thought I'd post some thoughts and opinions on these brands as these questions seem to come up often.

Ames: My local Bi-Mart sells these and the overall fit and finish of them seems to be quite poor, for the price it's odd that these axes are in the same category as Council's basic line.

Snow and Nealley: Had Chinese heads several years ago but as far as I can tell have been made in the USA again fully since 2014? Seem to get good reviews though it seems like their quality control has needed to be somewhat dialed in, slightly more expensive than what I was looking for but also come with sheaths.

Council: Blown away by the fit and finish on their less expensive axes. I bought the boys axe from a forestry supplier store for $25 and the fit and finish was miles ahead of Ames. On the website the non-velvicut axes are listed as "tool steel." I called up their customer service and verified that the basic line of axes are 1060 and the boys axe specifically is 1080 as it meets forestry standards.

Question: A lot of axe fans recommend finding classic axe heads and re-hafting them as the carbon steel in older heads is generally harder than current heads. With ISO 9001 standards though, I'm wondering if the hardness difference in a modern quality controlled axe would be noticeably different than a vintage axe head, any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Balls

i can attest to the snow and nealleys, as far as i know, since that amish guy bought the company, they'v since moved manufacture to smyrna in maine. i have been quite satisfied by my penobscot bay kindling axe, all axes you'v listed will need a regrind.

it's strange that they changed the listing. IIRC it used to say 1045 carbon steel as opposed to tool steel.

The newest axe I have is probably 30+ years old, so I don't have experience to comment on new ones, but, all the axes I have file the same with the exception of a VERY hard 90's Woodings Verona. Ames axes seem to be low quality, Snow and Nealley are an unknown, but there is a thread on here that deals with flawed Council axes. The Councils are always replaced free of charge and the replacements are flawless. All that being said, I like vintage axes because A. I love bringing tools to life. B. Its fun to hunt them out. C. You meet interesting people looking for them. It all comes down to personal preference, though. Be forewarned, you can't just have one axe.

now i cant speak in absolutes but the issues with council heads seems to be exclusive to the woodcraft line, that being chipping and rolling. if memory serves, they're checking into the problem. as for the other issues, these mainly effect the budget axes (I.E. red axes), there's a chance your handle could snap. it's a fairly low chance but not ignorable.

mainly the advantages vintage heads have over new heads is they are cheap in comparison with a head of comparable quality (velvicut felling axe, GB american felling axe...) and the customization that comes with it. i'd recommend it because not only is it economical, but it's good to learn the skills necessary to "tune" an axe to your liking. if you have enough wood and time, i'd recommend starting with your axe of choice, then completing the cordwood challenge to familiarize yourself with your tool. you should quickly find what works and what doesnt

 

[Hacked]

Council Tools uses quality steel and just recently upgraded their heat treatment equipment. I have no doubts that their axe heads could keep up with a lot of vintage stuff.

I've profiled a lot of axe heads from various different years. Some are very hard, some seem so soft that I question if they will hold an edge at all. Most all of them work just fine. Older axes just tend to have been of higher quality than what available today regardless of what you spend. The steel was good, the HT and temper were spot on, the fit and finish was much better, the profiles were better tought out, patterns for different regions and uses where available, handles where thin flexible and comfortable, and axes were tools to be respected rather than a brute tool to be abused.

A bit of work with a file, rasp, and sandpaper will go a long way to getting a modern CT up there with the old dogs. And there's nothing wrong with that. My most recent hang is a $8.47 axe that was forged in India in 2017. It works just as well as a Gransfors Bruks does and there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

[jblyttle]

I agree that the steel "quality" and absolute hardness are not quite correct or what you are looking for. It's not that harder is better, it's what is the correct hardness. Too hard is bad. Heat treat is key, and a narrow Rockwell range is ideal. It differs depending on the tool. An axe should in general be somewhat softer than a good knife. There are several steels that are very good and are very suitable if used properly. There are also poor steels and poor heat treats. I know that the budget Helko axes use 1045 which I feel is iffy. But 1060-1095 makes a fine axe if treated correctly, as does 5160 etc. Application matters as well. A hand held carving hatchet can stand to be a good deal harder than a 4+ pound splitting tool.

 

[Balls Deep]

One of the reasons I'm interested in this topic is that while I enjoy a project, I also enjoy a solid value and any more it seems that the vintage heads are no longer inexpensive or a bargain. The market has caught on to the demand and I'm either seeing axe heads beyond repair with sloppy grind jobs for $15 to $30. Or serviceable vintage heads for $40+. That's harder to pull the trigger on than a new axe, fully hung made to iso9001 standards that I will still take them time to modify to my hearts content. I plan on going to my flea market this weekend to see if I can find any old heads for a reasonable price, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[jblyttle]

One of the reasons I'm interested in this topic is that while I enjoy a project, I also enjoy a solid value and any more it seems that the vintage heads are no longer inexpensive or a bargain. The market has caught on to the demand and I'm either seeing axe heads beyond repair with sloppy grind jobs for $15 to $30. Or serviceable vintage heads for $40+. That's harder to pull the trigger on than a new axe, fully hung made to iso9001 standards that I will still take them time to modify to my hearts content. I plan on going to my flea market this weekend to see if I can find any old heads for a reasonable price, but I'm not holding my breath.

There are many good older heads on eBay in the $15 range.

 

[Hacked]

Balls,

I don't think anyone would argue with you supporting one of the last American axe manufacturers with your hard earned money. I'm happy I picked up the heads I did when I did. I'm sure as the weather warms up the prices will fall slightly. There's a couple more I'd like to get my hands on. That said there's nothing wrong buying a currently produced axe and fixing it up. Council Tools IMO is the best American axe manufacturer left. If no one buys their axes they will go the way of Plumb, Kelly (the real Kelly axes), Collins, Mann, and so many more.