Council Velvicut vs. S&N Penobscot - Recommendation?

H

High_Noon

Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
183
Well, it's time for a new axe.

I've had several axes over the years, most notably a S&N Forest axe, which I’ve had for the last 30+ years, but I’m afraid I ruined the edge by filing it to a wide 1/2” V edge decades ago, when I was a youngster in the Boy Scouts. Recently, I thought about grinding the edge back (with a file) about 1/4" - 3/8” and re-profiling the grind back to a proper convex edge, but I am not sure if such a procedure would take too much off the tempered part of the bit. The S&N Forest axe is also a bit bigger/heavier than I am looking for in my next axe. I also have a nice little Sweedish Hults Bruk hatchet, but the handle (when measured from the bottom of the head is only 12” and I find it a bit small and not particularly well balanced, hence my search for a new, well balanced axe I can use, while hiking, camping, hunting, and general outdoor use. I read Brian Andrew's post on his modified S&N Penobscot, which sound like just the ticket for me, but I was recently made aware that S&N moved production to China some years ago and although they have been purchased and the new owners intend to move production back to the US, I do not know when an American made Penobscot will be available or if Brian has any of his modified US ones for sale.

So, my question is in regard to axes which may be similar to the Penobscot. I've looked at the Council Velvicut 2# Premium Hudson Bay Axe with Sheath and although a bit bigger (2 lb. head, 24" handle vs. 1 3/4 lb. head, 18" handle) it seems to be a quality made in USA axe for general field use. What say you? Any owners of either of these axes have an opinion? Or any other suggestions for a well made axe in this size range? I am not particularly interested in GB, I definitely do not want a Chinese axe and I would consider other Swedish options. Thanks, and I look forward to your advice.
 
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I own the Velvicut. It's a great axe. When buying it I thought about getting the shorter Small Forest Axe from Gransfros, but decided that I could grip a 22" handle at 19" a lot easier than the other way around. No regrets. The length is wonderful, as is the quality of craftsmanship (and it's one of the newer "less finished" ones). It should be noted that at the beginning of the month Council announced that they would be making the Velvicut HB with a 19" handle, if you have developed a strong preference.

Another thing, have you considered the Council standard HB axe? It's a lot less expensive, and still great quality. It's also available with a 2# head and 18" handle, though I got the larger model myself. I really just think that 19" is too much of a trade off to be good at much of anything. That's just me though.
 
High_Noon said:
Well, it's time for a new axe.

I've had several axes over the years, most notably a S&N Forest axe, which I’ve had for the last 30+ years, but I’m afraid I ruined the edge by filing it to a wide 1/2” V edge decades ago, when I was a youngster in the Boy Scouts. Recently, I thought about grinding the edge back (with a file) about 1/4" - 3/8” and re-profiling the grind back to a proper convex edge, but I am not sure if such a procedure would take too much off the tempered part of the bit. The S&N Forest axe is also a bit bigger/heavier than I am looking for in my next axe. I also have a nice little Sweedish Hults Bruk hatchet, but the handle (when measured from the bottom of the head is only 12” and I find it a bit small and not particularly well balanced, hence my search for a new, well balanced axe I can use, while hiking, camping, hunting, and general outdoor use. I read Brian Andrew's post on his modified S&N Penobscot, which sound like just the ticket for me, but I was recently made aware that S&N moved production to China some years ago and although they have been purchased and the new owners intend to move production back to the US, I do not know when an American made Penobscot will be available or if Brian has any of his modified US ones for sale.

So, my question is in regard to axes which may be similar to the Penobscot. I've looked at the Council Velvicut 2# Premium Hudson Bay Axe with Sheath and although a bit bigger (2 lb. head, 24" handle vs. 1 3/4 lb. head, 18" handle) it seems to be a quality made in USA axe for general field use. What say you? Any owners of either of these axes have an opinion? Or any other suggestions for a well made axe in this size range? I am not particularly interested in GB, I definitely do not want a Chinese axe and I would consider other Swedish options. Thanks, and I look forward to your advice.
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Snow & Nealley has now moved production back to the US on, I believe, 5 models, and will be getting the rest back to USA production as soon as the forging dies are finished (it's their only holdup right now.)
 
scouter27 said:
I own the Velvicut. It's a great axe. When buying it I thought about getting the shorter Small Forest Axe from Gransfros, but decided that I could grip a 22" handle at 19" a lot easier than the other way around. No regrets. The length is wonderful, as is the quality of craftsmanship (and it's one of the newer "less finished" ones). It should be noted that at the beginning of the month Council announced that they would be making the Velvicut HB with a 19" handle, if you have developed a strong preference.

Another thing, have you considered the Council standard HB axe? It's a lot less expensive, and still great quality. It's also available with a 2# head and 18" handle, though I got the larger model myself. I really just think that 19" is too much of a trade off to be good at much of anything. That's just me though.
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Its not just you. A 19" haft with a 2lb head is a hatchet. To swing a 18" hatchet with two hands is just silly. Most cannot swing a 2lb head on a 18" haft properly in my opinion, they need to go shorted for a hatchet or longer for a axe with a 2lb head.
 
I hung my Hults Hatchet on a 19" haft and I like it.

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What type of steel is the S&N made of? The Velvicut is made of 5160. If S&N doesn't advertise what their steel is then it's a safe bet it's something lower carbon than that.

Some of their advertising gobble-de-gook:

"Tempered in fires to produce a hardness to the tool that you can't find on any other axe."

Just tell us the RC hardness unless you're ashamed of it.

So far this looks like a group looking to capitalize on a famous brand name without producing the goods.

penny.gif
penny.gif
 
Square_peg said:
What type of steel is the S&N made of? The Velvicut is made of 5160. If S&N doesn't advertise what their steel is then it's a safe bet it's something lower carbon than that.

Some of their advertising gobble-de-gook:

"Tempered in fires to produce a hardness to the tool that you can't find on any other axe."

Just tell us the RC hardness unless you're ashamed of it.

So far this looks like a group looking to capitalize on a famous brand name without producing the goods.

penny.gif
penny.gif
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Question--where'd the quoted text come from? Is it official ad copy or just something a retailer whipped up? Also, their price point on their USA-produced models is a good deal below that of the Velvicut line (if memory serves correctly it was $80 and under) and they've been doing hard work to bring tall of their manufacturing back to the USA. I've spoken with the owners in person and they're very nice fellows. I think they're doing a fine job of restoring the brand so far.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Question--where'd the quoted text come from? Is it official ad copy or just something a retailer whipped up? Also, their price point on their USA-produced models is a good deal below that of the Velvicut line (if memory serves correctly it was $80 and under) and they've been doing hard work to bring tall of their manufacturing back to the USA. I've spoken with the owners in person and they're very nice fellows. I think they're doing a fine job of restoring the brand so far.
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What's the difference between the Velvicut and the other Council axes? Is it just fit and finish or is the head a different steel?
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Question--where'd the quoted text come from? Is it official ad copy or just something a retailer whipped up?
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Since they don't seem to have their own website the text is from their most prominent online retailer. Who's to say who wrote the ad?


Also, their price point on their USA-produced models is a good deal below that of the Velvicut line (if memory serves correctly it was $80 and under) and they've been doing hard work to bring tall of their manufacturing back to the USA.
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Their price point is above what Council tool charges for their basic line of axes. $17 more for a 3.5 pound Dayton. $6 more for a Hudson Bay. And there's no reason to believe they're any better since they give no specs and have no website.


I've spoken with the owners in person and they're very nice fellows. I think they're doing a fine job of restoring the brand so far.
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They might well be the very finest folk on Earth. I'm not questioning that. As a consumer I'm questioning what it is that they are offering me. And with no evidence given that they are something special I will assume that they are nothing special. Next time you talk to them in person ask for some specs on their products, please.
 
Liberatus1 said:
What's the difference between the Velvicut and the other Council axes? Is it just fit and finish or is the head a different steel?
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The Velvicuts are made from 5160 (.60% carbon) The basic line is reported to be 4140 (.40% carbon). For comparison GB axes are reportedly made with a proprietary steel very similar to 1055 (.55% carbon). Higher carbon steels can reach a higher RC hardness and can retain hardness better while being tempered for toughness. Higher carbon = better axe, up to a point. The Forest Service used to require bits with a minimum of .72% carbon.
 
For reference, they have no website because the new owners are Amish. ;)
 
I would love to find out some more info on the new S&N axes.

Right now though I am looking for a vintage 2-2.5lb Dayton pattern boys axe. Since I live in the Dayton area I would think this pattern would work much better for the really hard woods in my area than the high dollar Swedish axes.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
For reference, they have no website because the new owners are Amish. ;)
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Are for real, or joking? That winky face is throwing me off...

Either way, I'm happy to see S&N making this happen. Hopefully they do well, though it will be tough without a website in this era.
 
I wish them well. I'm thrilled to see S&N selling American made axes again. I'd just like to know what they are.
 
Scouter 27: I checked out the Council standard HB axe, but like you, I prefer a slightly longer handle, I guess I could rehang it with a longer handle, but it's lookin' like the Council Velvicut 2# Premium HB might be the axe for me. I am looking for a quality axe to bridge the gap between my S&N Forest axe and my Hults Bruk hatchet.

FortyTwoBlades & Square-peg: I am both surprised and happy S&N's new owners are attempting to restore the brand to it's former glory, but with subcontractors producing the forgings, and with their apparent reluctance to advertise the specifications, is it possible to fully restore the brand? I wonder how much knowledge they have regarding production. I guess time will tell, but I will wait awhile before purchasing a new S&N. I would be more comfortable if they were producing all the components in-house.

Does anyone have additional recommendations? I looked at the BMC axes, built with the Council Velvicut 2# HB, but... how shall I put this... it seems like a bastardization of a fine axe - who needs all that artsy crap anyway? Yes, I know they have an "unfinished" version, but companies that market goods based solely on panache, design, celebrity endorsement and style and then charge a premium, turn my stomach. I suspect the good people on this forum will know what I mean.

Thank you for your recommendations so far...
 
That's a pretty significant difference in carbon content, I would expect the 4140 is pretty soft, down near 50. I'm surprised that the USFS was that high, that seems like it would be kind of above and beyond.
 
Liberatus1 said:
That's a pretty significant difference in carbon content, I would expect the 4140 is pretty soft, down near 50. I'm surprised that the USFS was that high, that seems like it would be kind of above and beyond.
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...another reason I am considering the Velvicut.
 
I don't think the new owners are reluctant to mention what RC their axes are, or what steel. My guess is they're either marketing their items to the overwhelming majority of folks that don't know/don't care about what that stuff means, or they are underestimating how important it is to "our crowd." Possibly both. That doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't good. That being said, I don't have personal experience with them other than dry-handling and that doesn't tell me anything about the steel.
 
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