Counter steering motorcycles .

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
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I know we have a few who ride and while I no longer do motorcycles are still number one with me .

In the movie " Blown away with Jeff Bridges and Tommy Lee Jones ? Jeff rides a motorcycle in a rescue attempt to save his family from bad Tommy Lee . Aside from the fact that he seemed to be doing the stunt riding he also seemed to employ counter steering . By this I mean he turned the moyorcycle out of the curve and more or less allows it to fall into the curve . Thid might not be a scientific derfinition of the process . It is what I have always thought it felt like . He wasn,t really doing this in curves . He was doing it to swerve in and out of cars paths as he raced to his families aid . The stunts were not fancy leaping through fire deals . It just looked to me like someone who really knew how to get from point A to point B in a hurry . I was impressed cause it looked like he did his own stunts and he moved his body well which is critical for counter steering . I am not claiming this to be the greatest movie in the world so I don,t reccomend renying it just to see a couple of minutes unless you like the actors . It was just neat to see .
 
I have the same experience. Although steering a motorcycle is 95% balance, the bike has the weird effect to move opposite to the side you steer the steering wheel to at high speeds. I don't know how this happens, but it is probably because by steering right your balance point shifts to the left steering the bike to the left.
 
Yep.

Selected from the "Zen of Motorcycle Riding"
http://www.geocities.com/american_motorcycle_association/crashcures.html#5



EVERYONE who will, or wants to, ride a motorcycle should take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation riders' course. Everyone. There is an experienced rider's course, as well. Most insurance companies give a 10% discount to graduates. They are available in virtually every state and cost $50, max.

The Beginner's Course PROVIDES motorcycles!

"COUNTERSTEERING:
THE CENSORED SECRET
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident. —Arthur Schopenhauer

The mysterious secret of how to gain control of a leaning motorcycle is called countersteering." As the name implies, a rider is required to steer in the opposite direction as might be presumed (at least part of the time during a typical cornering maneuver). This is needed in order to get the bike to perform the trick of leaning into the curve of the road. This is how a bike is "balanced." Although motorcycle racers are paid millions of dollars a year for their knowledge of countersteering, this same technique is also required for every street rider.

Steering left to turn left will only make the bike lean (tip over) to the right. It is impossible to steer a bike like a car. (While riding around a curve, try turning into the turn and see what happens. If you enjoy excitement, you're going to love this experiment, assuming you survive, of course.) Although it is possible to slowly follow most curves of the road without consciously countersteering (by performing what I call "pseudo-countersteering"), the ability to turn quickly will give a rider more options to work with and provide a greater margin of safety—he is in total control of his machine. Ignorance of countersteering is the root of all fear of motorcycles.

(diagram motorcycle with turning handlebars vs. lean—top view—countersteering)

(diagram motorcycle with turned front wheel—front view—countersteering) #2 (a) vertical (b) 10 degrees lean "countersteering produces centrifugal force which tips the bike over and forces it to lean"

Unfortunately for millions of citizens, reverse psychology is at work here: the motorcycle rider must steer towards danger—towards the outside of a curve, or towards a vehicle blocking the road—rather than away from it. Actually, he initially steers towards the obstacle to force the bike to lean, then rapidly steers (leans) away from the hazard. Obviously, an uneducated rider is not going to suddenly figure this out during his one second of panic.

All the more reason to make sure that people become aware of the facts. The government is apparently afraid of this little word, and like the "theory" of evolution, countersteering is treated like a bastard theory (or at least a bastard word), unworthy of instruction to those under the government's influence. (Geologists must use knowledge of evolution in order to find underground oceans of oil, and motorcyclists must use knowledge of countersteering to find their way out of emergency situations.) This government censorship has deadly consequences. There is no reason to be afraid of a simple word, and much to be gained by overcoming such fear of the English language. The purpose of teaching countersteering is not to prove anyone "wrong," but to give a rider the ammunition he requires to handle an emergency situation—and all normal situations—without crashing out-of-control.

Keith Code, who has trained thousands of motorcycle riders and racers all over the world through his California Superbike School, and author of A Twist of the Wrist and Twist of the Wrist II—the Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding, pioneered the formal teaching of the most effective riding techniques available today. His methods help his motorsports students cut an average of seven seconds off their lap times—that's the difference between last and first place. That cannot be done without proper instruction in vehicle control. Most of his techniques apply equally well to normal highway driving, and especially during emergency maneuvers. Rather than paraphrase, I'll let you "hear" an excellent explanation of countersteering from a coach of world champions. Regarding one of Code's techniques that applies to safe riding on the highway, in 1983 he wrote:

"Steering. . . happens backwards. Many riders have learned to steer a motorcycle without understanding the process. . . .

"Steering is simple enough—you push the bars in the opposite direction of the direction you wish to travel. That begins the turn, and the bike leans as it turns. Deliberately turning the bars in the opposite direction of travel is known as counter steering. . . . To go right you must turn the bars to the left—to go left, turn the bars to the right. Counter steering is the only way you can direct a motorcycle to steer accurately. . . . In essence, motorcycle steering is backwards from most other forms of transportation. An automobile goes in the direction you turn the wheel, as do most other forms of transportation.

". . . . One problem we have in learning to ride stems from a cruel trick played on us by our parents. They gave us a tricycle to pedal around. A tricycle turns in the direction you steer it. When we rode a bicycle for the first time, we fell down, and everyone said it was because we didn't have good balance. Actually, it was because bicycles also counter steer.

"Balance had nothing to do with it! The confusion is caused because the child expects the bike to go right when he turns to the right. Eventually, out of sheer survival instincts, he goes through the steering motions without understanding them and winds up on a motorcycle 15 years later not knowing what he has been doing to go around turns.

". . . . Most riders, in an emergency, try to turn the bike in the direction they want to go. . . . I have known people who who have ridden for 30 years without having to face an emergency situation. Then, one day a car pulls out in front of them. They try to avoid it but the bike won't do what they want it to. So they get scared and quit riding. They realize that the control they thought was there—wasn't."

(3 photos = c/s (1) straight (2) c/s down (3) lean

In Twist of the Wrist II, (1993) Code writes: "Practically everyone learns how to ride without any understanding of counter-steering, but the moment it is fully comprehended and applied, it opens the door to vast amounts of improvement in every possible situation that involves steering the bike."

On wet asphalt, only brake and accellerate in a straight line, and stay off the oil strip.

Knowledge of countersteering has been around for a very long time. Mr. Code discovered it for himself literally before I was a twinkle in my father's eye. He was able to parlay his "secret" into an exciting and successful career. Once the engineers publically confirmed his observations, he became the first to start teaching it to the general public. I felt cheated that I had to experience 20 years of falls and close calls before I ever heard the word countersteering. (This antique word is not yet defined in Webster's dictionary.)

Almost a hundred years ago, two enterprising American bicycle manufacturers decided to invent the first engine-driven airplane. These two engineers were not only geniuses of aviation, but were equally insightful regarding their first love. In his book, The Wright Brothers, F.C. Kelly (Ballentine, 1966) writes about the discoverers of countersteering: ". . . Wilbur used for illustration what a man thinks happens when riding a bicycle. 'I have asked dozens of bicycle riders,' said Wilbur, 'how they turn a bicycle to the left. I have never found a single person who stated all the facts correctly when first asked. . . . I have never found a non-scientific bicycle rider who had particularly noticed it and spoke of it from his own conscious observation and initiative.'" Just ask any of your friends who own bicycles or motorbikes if they know what countersteering is. You will probably be just as disappointed as Wilbur—and your friends will give you funny looks (just give them a copy of this chapter to shut them up—what are friends for?).

The only riders I've met who recognized the word countersteering were either racers or had been required to attend an MSF school, such as military personnel who were forced to go to school in order to get a base permit. Even many motorcycle sales professionals have never heard of it, and do not recognize the need to attend a local MSF riding school to learn it. A rider does not need to understand countersteering to be a good rider—until he finds himself in a panic situation or desires to improve his performance.

Note that when a rider keeps his arms stiff under braking he finds it impossible to countersteer into a corner, leading to a sudden self-made emergency. He feels as if he has entered the turn "too fast," since the bike has suddenly "forgotten" how to turn. Entering a curve while applying the brakes is (almost) never a good idea anyway, since inertia makes the bike want to "highside," while the machine needs to lean. Car drivers commonly make this mistake, since what works on a "flat" car does not work on a leaning bike. "Stiff-arming" the handlebars literally prevents the bike from steering. A rider must keep his arms relaxed at all times, even when reaching for the "panic button." The handlebars are not for support, they are for making steering inputs and for operating the levers and switches. A rider's legs are stronger than his arms, and do not adversely affect the steering when used for support. The stationary gas tank is much more stable for holding onto than the movable handlebars.

In decreasing-radius turns, bad habits are especially tricky. In decreasing-radius turns, the rider must slow down continuously while in the turn. This decelleration means that centrifugal force wants to make the bike go vertical. To compensate, the rider must countersteer to keep the bike leaned over, and perhaps to increase his lean angle. However, the bike is already leaned over the majority of its lean angle, so the handlebars and front wheel never completely point in the opposite direction. This can confuse the unwary and uneducated rider. What this sensation feels like is a "counterforce" on the handlebars, resisting the natural tendency of the bike to want to stand up under decelleration. When a rider unexpectedly comes upon a decreasing-radius curve, ignorance of countersteering can lead to a fright at the very least. A similar sensation is experienced in an off-camber turn, since the bike is also decellerating.

(illustration c/s decreasing radius turn)

Attempting to steer a motorcycle "normally" using "common sense" is about as effective as jumping out of an airplane and flapping one's arms as a bird "normally" flaps its wings, instead of making intelligent use of a scientifically proven parachute. In reality, common sense ought to warn a rider that cars and bikes are significantly different. I guess that's why true common sense is less-than-common."


wacherass.
 
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "counter steering," but I notice that when I am in a turn, I automatically push the bars opposite to the turn.

I also notice that most of the steering is done with the butt. Mostly how you move your butt on the seat while riding and the bike follows.

Anyone notice how a motorcycle engine like a BMW or Moto Guzzi which turns in line with the bike's longitudinal axis tends to affect the balance of the bike when revving the engine? Makes it twist or lean a little to the side?

Like a single engine prop plane when you take off and have to counter-steer to offset the rotational twist of the prop?
 
I counter-steered when I first started riding...but once I learned how to enter a turn by leaning into it, did not need to counter-steer anymore....just happened by itself.
 
I think it was called "gyroscopic progression" or something similar...happens with any gyroscope...tipping the spinning wheel stuff. I'm sure someone will look it up, I'm feeling lazy today.

Having been riding since I was 15 or so, I can tell you that it might *feel* as if it all in the butt, but it's really the pressure on the bars that give you *control* of a bike. One ounce of pressure on a grip will overcome 250 pounds of meat in the seat every time you do it intentionally. When a rookie (and I include myself in this) fails to allow physics to work is when they get in juxtaposition and creates a high side.

Properly applied, it produces amazing control and precision as opposed to simply making a turn.

Don't we have at least one professional rider here somewhere?

I've buddy who is a test rider for Harley on the other forum...I'll ask him to visit if no one else steps up to it.
 
I'm not sure what counter steering means. I used to race scrambles (predecessor to motocross) and I ride a Harley every day.

I find the biggest danger to me in my city is college girls driving daddy's car with a cell phone screwed in one ear and her eyes in the rear view mirror looking at her makeup.

They have come close enough to me that I have kicked their car. That's close.
 
Its "gyroscopic precession", one of physics magic tricks, like magnetism. A spinning mass will be affected by a force at 90 degrees to the application point.I don't need to look it up because I am sagacious, and a good speller.
 
It's impossible to turn a bike without countersteering. You do it, whether you're aware of it or not. Physics, there's a few articles on this out there somewhere.
 
I agree Eric...it's when you do it *on purpose* that it really starts to perform magic.

Severtecher - I am alway impressed by good spellers. The problem I had was not in spelling, but in remembering a term I probably first heard 40 years ago...thanks for putting it back in my vocabulary!
 
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident. —Arthur Schopenhauer
Quote by kismet .

Oh come on now ! I,ve never heard anything so ridiculous in all my life ! A statement like that will incite nothing but trouble . I am vehemently in opposition to its very being . Except that when it is put forth in such a manner one cannot deny there is some valdity to it . It is not that I agree with you per se . When it is stated in such a way it is a basic truth that even a child could see . L:O:L

Kismet , excuse the liberty I took . I have long been a fan of the Sherlck holmes stories where it is put forth that "There is nothing so evident as something pointed out to you ."

One must admit that unless you are really into physics that counter steering might be considered counter intuitive .

.
 
Eric_425 said:
It's impossible to turn a bike without countersteering. You do it, whether you're aware of it or not. Physics, there's a few articles on this out there somewhere.
This is correct, no matter how slight, countersteering is always involved. The problem with C.S. is that the more you think about it the more impossible it seems, push left to turn left, push right and you turn right. Seems like the opposite should happen, guess that's why the call it counter steering.:confused:
 
Countersteering is an absolute safety necessity for all riders to learn. It's saved my bacon when carrying to much speed in to a sweeping turn. Another weird one is to continue looking ahead into the turn and not at the turn (I don't know if that sounds right). I don't mean just look ahead of where you are going but in a tight turn you look and concentrate beyond where you would normally focus. (I still don't think that sounds right :)
 
I ride as well. Nowadays I putt about on a Yamaha TY250 and a Gas-Gas TXT 280 trials bikes, but I rode a variety of street bikes also. Counter steering is great, especially once you know what it is and that you have been doing it all along. Peg weighting, counter-balancing, and steering with the rear wheel have all come to me more as a benefit of off-road riding.
Kieth Code, roadracer and racing guru, has it well covered in his series of books and videos. Kieth owns and operates the California Suberbike School.
A Twist of the Wrist, A Twist of the Wrist II, and The Soft Science of Roadracing are the books, and there is a "Twist" video.

DaddyDett
 
Yup...Keith knows what he is talking about. As said...it can save your hide when you haven't scrubbed off enough speed.
 
I totally don't understand this. Guess I'm hopeless. And one of the reasons I don't ride. I want to get a bike, but rather than get something nice as planned maybe I should just get a beater and figure I'm going to dump it a few times?

I'll have to read this a few more times and see if it sinks in.

I understand gyroscopic precession, and see it demonstrated every time I take off in a conventional gear aircraft and the tail is raised, and the right rudder needs to be held down to keep the plane from yawing left (along its vertical axis.)

Norm
 
Norm?

Trust me. It happens. It works. Quick, emergency type turns mandate it. Gentle sweepers use the same principal, but lean disguises it.

Read please, and then sign up for the MSF (motorcycle safety foundation) class. Low investment, THEIR bike, and great information.

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/zig/



wacherass and wear a helmet.
 
Svashtar, don't worry. There are three types of riders; those who have crashed, those who are going to crash and those who are going to crash again!
 
accoring to:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/webzxr/zxr750r/Features/ridingtips/cornering.html

"The No BS Bike

The No Body Steering bike was invented by Keith Code in 2001 and is designed to prove to riders that the only way you can get a bike to turn is using the handlebars. No amount of pressure on the foot peg, no amount of hanging off and no amount of upper body motion will get a bike to turn. Admittedly you can get a slight change of direction with these techniques and the Schools teaches some of thee in Level Three but to get the bike to turn and by that we mean lean over far enough to successfully get through a 30mph 90 degree bend.
The upper handlebars do nothing. That are mounted to the fairing bracket and the throttle is there just to allow you to maintain speed, a crucial aspect if you what to have a stable bike in a straight line.
It normally takes around three seconds for a rider to realise the truth of counter steering and that body steering doesn't work. "

the bike had been modified so that the headset won't turn, and the system has outriggers so it can fall over and splat, but can lean. so you get going fowards, and just go straight. no turning from body leaning.

countersteering, even if you don't know it's going on, is the only way bicycle and motorcycles turn, at speeds above walking really.

now, body positioning plays a key in how fast and well that might occur, but really, you can cling to the saddle, hump your gas tank and not move, and thrash a bike around with proper steering inputs.

i HIGHLY recommend a pair of books "Effective Motorcycling" and "MORE E M" by David Hough, effectively the father of modern motorcycle training. even more emphatic, for the average rider, they are more important than anything. really. keith code is good reading, but hough is better unless you race. even then, read them :)

bladite
 
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