CPM 15V Vs 10V and sources.

[Infi-del]

So I am considering having a custom knife made. It will be a small carving/utility knife. It will never see prying, batoning, or improper use (Like using a knife as a screw driver). It will be strictly for cutting, notching, carving, scraping, whittling, and shaving (Materials... not skin). SO... I want something that can take and hold a razors edge for a LONG time. It will be used for notching wood so I have a concern that 15V could chip maybe? But I'm not well versed in this steel. In a perfect world the blade will be 5/32" thick, Wharncliffe or Nesmuk type blade about 1" wide 2.5" long. 6.5" to 7" OAL.

So my question is which steel would work best. Now what I want to avoid is answers like "10V is plenty tough... why would you want 15V?" That doesn't help me at all. I want sound reasons why one would be BETTER suited to this type of knife and why. I don't care what your personal favorite is... I'm looking for the right material for the tool.

Also, the maker I have selected to work with doesn't have a source for 15V. Anyone know where I can get a piece that's roughly 5/32" thick 8" X 1.5" or 8" X 2" even.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[Magicatus]

Sounds to me like you made your own mind up on the 15V... with all the super steels coming out you have to wonder why they haven't been making many if any knives in 15v if that really exists... could be because most people don't want to spend seventeen days sharpening the knife after once it is dulled... and even fewer that are will to bring a power grinder into the woods to sharpen it once dull.

The higher one goes in edge retention, the greater amount of toughness that is lost, so if you end up battoning such a steel as 15V you are very likely to snap it.

something like CPM 3V has incredible toughness while very good edge retention, and is still only moderate on the strain to re-sharpen when needed.

Frank

 

[RevDevil]

Sounds to me like you made your own mind up on the 15V... with all the super steels coming out you have to wonder why they haven't been making many if any knives in 15v if that really exists... could be because most people don't want to spend seventeen days sharpening the knife after once it is dulled... and even fewer that are will to bring a power grinder into the woods to sharpen it once dull.

The higher one goes in edge retention, the greater amount of toughness that is lost, so if you end up battoning such a steel as 15V you are very likely to snap it.

something like CPM 3V has incredible toughness while very good edge retention, and is still only moderate on the strain to re-sharpen when needed.

Frank

I would also be inclined to believe that the cost and time involved in a proper heat treat, grinding, and finishing would put it out of reach for most people out there. We are in the .01% of the total knife market (if that). Also, not all super alloy steels make for great cutlery tools.

In my own experience, the higher alloy steels like S90V and S110V do not hold a "razor edge". There are so many carbides in the steel, the lasting edge retention is basically a working edge (cutting with lots of actual carbides).

 

[Twindog]

Carving, whittling and such can put a lot of stress on the edge, so I think you'd want a tough steel capable of withstanding cracking, chipping and breaking. So you'd want toughness.

10V and 15V are maximized for wear resistance, with 15V having a substantial advantage. But you lose toughness. Generally, the steel companies have produced highly wear resistant edges by adding vanadium. The more vanadium the greater the wear resistance. But toughness also tends to drop.

Crucible has a relative rating of the toughness of its vanadium steels:

3V (2.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 100.
S30V (4 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 90.
S90V (8.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 70.
10V (9.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 70.
15V (14.9 percent vanadium) isn't rated on this index, but it is much less tough than 10V.

You can see toughness dropping with the addition of vanadium.

I'd also worry about using a knifemaker with no experience with this steel. The heat treat is important, and experience really helps a knifemaker dial in a good heat treat.

 

[Infi-del]

Sounds to me like you made your own mind up on the 15V... with all the super steels coming out you have to wonder why they haven't been making many if any knives in 15v if that really exists

... could be because most people don't want to spend seventeen days sharpening the knife after once it is dulled... and even fewer that are will to bring a power grinder into the woods to sharpen it once dull.

The higher one goes in edge retention, the greater amount of toughness that is lost, so if you end up battoning such a steel as 15V you are very likely to snap it.

something like CPM 3V has incredible toughness while very good edge retention, and is still only moderate on the strain to re-sharpen when needed.

Frank

Thank you posting the exact type of reply I was hoping NOT to get.

 

[Infi-del]

Carving, whittling and such can put a lot of stress on the edge, so I think you'd want a tough steel capable of withstanding cracking, chipping and breaking. So you'd want toughness.

10V and 15V are maximized for wear resistance, with 15V having a substantial advantage. But you lose toughness. Generally, the steel companies have produced highly wear resistant edges by adding vanadium. The more vanadium the greater the wear resistance. But toughness also tends to drop.

Crucible has a relative rating of the toughness of its vanadium steels:

3V (2.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 100.
S30V (4 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 90.
S90V (8.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 70.
10V (9.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 70.
15V (14.9 percent vanadium) isn't rated on this index, but it is much less tough than 10V.

You can see toughness dropping with the addition of vanadium.

I'd also worry about using a knifemaker with no experience with this steel. The heat treat is important, and experience really helps a knifemaker dial in a good heat treat.

Thank you. I worry too that 15V might not be tough enough. I wouldn't want to leave tiny pieces of my edge in some wood. And you raise a good point about heat treat.

 

[shqxk]

Don't be confused, there are differences between the word 'wear resistance' and 'edge retention'. Both 10V and 15V has extremely high amount of carbide thus extremely high wear resistance. But both steel also has kind of low to very low toughness and very poor edge stability.

Edge retention consist with many many factors e.g. which material you cut, how do you cut, to blade characteristic like edge angle, hardness, toughness, wear resistance, grain, edge stability, steel matrix construction. For some example, modern hightech ceramic has much higher wear resistance than any super steel but it won't compete as cutting tool to a well heat treated plain carbon steel.

If you want a steel that hold razor edge really long, Nothing beat low alloy hypereutictic steel such as 52100 or W1. These kind of steel will hold razor much better than any considered super steel around.

Carving, whittling and such can put a lot of stress on the edge, so I think you'd want a tough steel capable of withstanding cracking, chipping and breaking. So you'd want toughness.

10V and 15V are maximized for wear resistance, with 15V having a substantial advantage. But you lose toughness. Generally, the steel companies have produced highly wear resistant edges by adding vanadium. The more vanadium the greater the wear resistance. But toughness also tends to drop.

Crucible has a relative rating of the toughness of its vanadium steels:

3V (2.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 100.
S30V (4 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 90.
S90V (8.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 70.
10V (9.75 percent vanadium) has a toughness index of 70.
15V (14.9 percent vanadium) isn't rated on this index, but it is much less tough than 10V.

You can see toughness dropping with the addition of vanadium.

I'd also worry about using a knifemaker with no experience with this steel. The heat treat is important, and experience really helps a knifemaker dial in a good heat treat.

Where did you get that toughness index chart? I'm pretty sure 3V is more than 4 time tougher than S90V at any flex or lateral blending test.

 

[gine]

So I am considering having a custom knife made. It will be a small carving/utility knife. It will never see prying, batoning, or improper use (Like using a knife as a screw driver). It will be strictly for cutting, notching, carving, scraping, whittling, and shaving (Materials... not skin). SO... I want something that can take and hold a razors edge for a LONG time. It will be used for notching wood so I have a concern that 15V could chip maybe? But I'm not well versed in this steel. In a perfect world the blade will be 5/32" thick, Wharncliffe or Nesmuk type blade about 1" wide 2.5" long. 6.5" to 7" OAL.

So my question is which steel would work best. Now what I want to avoid is answers like "10V is plenty tough... why would you want 15V?" That doesn't help me at all. I want sound reasons why one would be BETTER suited to this type of knife and why. I don't care what your personal favorite is... I'm looking for the right material for the tool.

Also, the maker I have selected to work with doesn't have a source for 15V. Anyone know where I can get a piece that's roughly 5/32" thick 8" X 1.5" or 8" X 2" even.

Thanks in advance for any input.

I wouldn't go with a high wear resistant steel unless I was cutting abrasive material, or if I didn't have access to sharpening equipment for an extended time. For scraping I think you would need the wear resistance though.

 

[bodog]

What about Vanadis 4E? A little less than M390 in edge retention and a little less than 3V In toughness. More edge retention than 3V and more toughness than M390. Also, able to take a mirrored finish, fine carbides, and almost stainless. Anything wrong with that for most uses?

 

[cm_bushman]

I agree with the other posters here, high-carbide steels are counterproductive for razor sharpness. The size of the Vanadium carbides specifically will make it hard to get that really fine edge in the first place, and after a bit of cutting will produce a comparatively rougher edge as the steel matrix wears around those carbides. In this case, low-alloy steels are the best bet, alloys like 10xx (specifically 1084 ans 1095), 52100, W2, and the the White, Yellow and Blue Japanese steels come to mind. Fine-grained stainless alloys like 14C28n and even lowly AUS-8 are also in the running, with corrosion resistance rolled in.

In fact, for the specific tasks mentioned in your original post, carving and notching, I have seen testing comparing low-carbide alloys like these to high-wear steels like M4 and 10V in wood chisels, with the plain carbon tools lasting much longer for notching and carving applications requiring very high sharpness. Here is a link, which even includes macro pictures of the edges after the testing: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?165975-Chisel-Blade-Testing-5-Steels

Now, if you're like me, and you don't really sharpen to that sub-micron edge, I love A-11 class steels (k390 more than k294/10v, for the bit of added toughness) and have had only minor issues with chipping. I can tell you first hand that I would not use them to carve wood if I had a plain carbon slip joint available. Heat Treatment is all important, but I just don't believe these alloys (and especially higher-carbide alloys like 15v and CPM-121) are suited for a dedicated carving knife.

Light use EDC? Absolutely!

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I'm doing a small run of utility knives in 10V at full hardness.

My experience with 10V has led me to believe it is the highest performance knife steel out there for pure cutting. Not only does it have the most edge retention of any steel in real world use, it also cuts like a hacksaw. It has to be the most aggressive steel out there. If you have to cut hard things like cardboard and rope 10V is king.

I've never used 15V but I believe the substantial loss of toughness compared to 10V prevents its edge retention from lining up with its carbide content. Its just too brittle to maintain a thin edge in hard cutting without microchipping. 10V on the other hand has great toughness, especially for its alloy content. I believe its charpy numbers are the same as D2.

Also if you main use is going to be wood carving/ notching I don't think alloy content really matters. Any good blade steel can push cut wood all day no problem. Toughness and proper geometry is much more important than alloy choice. However if I had to recommend what I think is the best steel for wood carving I would say 3V because of the spectacularly thin edges it can take while still being very tough.