CPM 420V or D2 ? Which would you choose and why?

Geode

Geode

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May 12, 2001
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Hello - I need to make a choice between these two metals in a 3 - 4 inch folding knife.

From my search, there have been a few posts mentioning that CPM 420V is more stain resistant, wear resistant, and holds an edge longer - however is harder to sharpen.

Does CPM 420V take the same razor sharp edge D2 does?

Is it that tough to resharpen (if the knife does not get completely dull)?

Anyone who can share their experiences or point out a thread to go to - Thanks in advance!

Geode
 
I have 2 knives in 420V. A Darrell Ralph EDC and a kit Carson model 4. Both of these knives came scary sharp. I haven't tried to resharpen either but have heard that it is a real bear to sharpen.
 
I have a couple of blades in 420V and they have sharpened right up with diamond stones. Don't waste your time with natural stones as the vanadium carbides in the steel are much harder than the stones and cannot be cut efficiently. 420V will take every bit as good an edge as D2, and in my experience, even better. 420V has very fine grain structure and is capable of stunning edges given proper sharpening.
 
Originally posted by Geode
...CPM 420V is more stain resistant, wear resistant, and holds an edge longer - however is harder to sharpen.

Does CPM 420V take the same razor sharp edge D2 does?

Is it that tough to resharpen (if the knife does not get completely dull)?

Geode
Click to expand...

For folders, I'd take 420V. It definitely has a finer grain structure than D2, and all things being equal, will take a finer edge in theory. Neither is a particularly tough steel (understatement). 420V if treated to Rc58-59 will hold an edge better than D2 at that same hardness. If D2 is taken up to Rc60-61 as it can be easily by most all makers if they wish, well, I'm not sure 420V would win or not. It would probably vary depending on the task. Hardness matters in terms of both abrasion resistance and resistance to a rolled edge.

420V is definitely and notably more corrosion resistant. D2 is as close to being "relatively stain resistant carbon steel" as it is to being "barely stainless steel". Depends on the stock and the heat treat and the finish. YRMV.

Buy diamond stones as mentioned and never look back. If you buy diamond, you won't notice enough difference in sharpening to matter. If you buy natural stones, both will be hard to sharpen due to Vanadium content (1.2% in D2 and 9% in 420V). Vanadium carbides run Rc82-85, while natural stones run (I think) Rc65 +/- a few points? Anyway, diamond is up around Rc90 if memory serves, and it does the job on high alloy steels.

Darrel tends to keep 420V at Rc58 I think, and D2E at 58-59 (this from memory, so somebody straighten me out if this isn't quite right). At these hardnesses, I must say that of the knives I own, I can only get a Dunkerly hunter in 52100 any sharper than my DDR pieces.

I have:
1. EDC in D2E
2. Apogee in Damasteel
3. ALB in 420V
4. Arclite in 420V

I am not sure what Darrel does, it may be just very competent heat treat and keeping them a point or two on the softer side, but they are fine blades and take an outstanding edge... the hair jumping, clean shaving edge that I can't get on all my blades. I can't say that I've tested them side-by-side with other steels for objectivity, so edge holding I'll just have to say "good enough for me" and for sure very good, including the Damasteel (which surprised me. Damasteel is a combo of two powder metallurgy steels, one a clone of ATS-34 called RWL34, the other a PM clone of 12c27. It actually holds an edge very well, subjectively. I do have some other stainless damascus that isn't very hard and you can tell).
 
Darrel lists the benefits/attributes of both on his site under "Engineering."

I've had the EDC in 420 and D2 and didn't notice a significant difference doing what I do with knives.
 
I don't think Darrel would mind if I just cut/pasted what he wrote on his web page about these materials...hope not. If he does, I'll just edit this post:

From http://www.darrelralph.com/1mainframe.htm

BG42: In the past I have been known for working with many early release materials, such as BG42 (the first Kraits were BG42) and CPM 420V. Many Krait's were made from this material. I feel that BG42 is in the same realm as ATS 34 and 154 CM. In my opinion, they all fall within a few percentage points of one another when it comes to holding an edge and in every day performance. Generally, I use 154CM as a base material for folks who like this type of material.

D2 Crucible Airdi-150: In believe that D2 (crucible airdi-150) and CMP420v are two of the best folder blade steels that are produced at this time. The elements that Crucible Products use to produce their airdi-150 very close to stainless steel. This creates a blade that can be sharpened like a carbon blade (wicked) with a satisfactory amount of stain resistance. NOTE: When produced, D2 steel can vary signifantly in its composition, due to varying amounts of additives. I like the Crucible Products grade because they control their D2 with more chrome, resulting in a final product that is nearly stainless steel.

CPM420V: CPM420V is a great and tough blade material. I have been using it for nearly five years now. Not only does it perform very well under pressure, but it takes a great edge, also!

Talonite: Talonite, in my opinion, is a great flesh cutting steel. I recommend it to hunters all the time. Talonite takes an extremely sharp edge and will cut you just by looking at it. I get cut more on talonite than any other blade steel I have ever used. Note: I make all of my models available with optional talonite blades.

Mike Norris Stainless Damascus: I like Mike's Damascus because... IT CUTS! Mike combines the right materials, in my opinion, thereby achieving a great Damascus look with a fantastic cutting ability.

My Damascus: I make my damascus with two carbon tool steels. It will cut!
Click to expand...

I think it is good to note that when talking of D2 and Darrel Ralph, that means Crucible's stuff. D2 does vary.
 
You guys are too good to me - yes I am taking the plunge to get an EDC and am looking for opinions on what steel to get. Since the price difference is only $20, it really seems to come down to is there any difference in cutting ability, corrosion resistance, edge holding, and sharpening.

To summarize from your statements: it seems like the CPM420V is more stain resistant and has the reputation for being more resistant to wear. Will sharpen, but bring your diamond hones. Both steels will get wickedly sharp.

Since DDR is doing the heat treat and grinding, I am confident that the match will result in a superior blade. I was only concerned about the stain resistance of D2 and percieved difficulty to sharpen of CPM420V.

I was looking for some personal experiences with both steels, but maybe like 92 degrees, getting one EDC in each steel will become an eventuality.

Thanks again.:)
 
I gave up my 420V EDC as it was larger than I "needed." I wish I could have kept them both...

I recently got a 3" EDC from Darrel and it's D2. As the above post mentions, I think that Crucible's D2 is supposed to be pretty stain resistant.

You will love that knife whichever material you go with. The hard decision for most seems to be CF or Ti.
 
D2 is generally run at 60 to 61 rockwell in most blades, except larger blades may be 59 to 60. Comparing D2 at 58 or so isnt really a good test as it is not the optimum hardness for that steel. And yes, the point or 2 DOES make a difference. I think wayen Goddard did tests, and found a 15 to 20% decreses in cutting ability going from 60 rockwell to 58 in many other steels. 59 to 61 is listed as the working hardness of D2. Also, cryo treatment makes big diff. A d2 blade at 58 rockwell obvioulsly isnt going to perform up to par.
 
I read somewhere that DDR uses D2 at that hardness because it's less prone to chipping with a very thin edge.
 
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This is turning into a Darrel Ralph thread:D
I've got two of Darrel's folders in 420V and an ArcLite in D2M. I know the 420V is 57-58 Rc, but am unsure about the D2M (Camillus' D2 AL is 60 Rc, and I can't help but think Darrel had some say in that). Never thought to ask, but am very satisfied with the performance.
I think the D2M is supposed to be tougher, which suits me, since I like thin edges, and can get a little rough with my knives sometimes-slap them around, call them names, stuff like that:o
I've been really impressed with both. The D2M sharpens easier, and seems to take a more aggressive cutting edge (that's judging by feel more than use, since I honestly can't tell a real difference in use-Darrel's recurves kick butt, period). Haven't had any kind of corrosion issues with either steel.
420V is a little harder to sharpen, but it touches up pretty easily-I usually just use a Sharpmaker.
Both of them take a wicked edge.
Tough choice. I'm really curious to try out S30V, and see how it compares. Based on what I've read, it might suit me better than either 420V or D2, but that remains to be seen. Maybe one of these days...
 
OK, I've got a question regarding the "need" for diamond for sharpening 420V, or any high-vanadium-content steel: WHY? It is said that because the vanadium carbides are so hard (80+ at least?), you need diamond to cut them. However, I don't understand this, when it would seem that the size of the diamond particles would be something like an order of magnitude larger than the vanadium carbides. Wouldn't that be sort-of like trying to shape, say, plastic marbles with a stone wall? Could someone please explain? Or am I totally screwed up on the relative sizes?
 
Maybe I got lost in the analogy, but wouldn't it be easier to do that than sharpen a plastic wall with stone marbles?
 
Originally posted by krept
Maybe I got lost in the analogy, but wouldn't it be easier to do that than sharpen a plastic wall with stone marbles?
Click to expand...

Um... no. Stone is harder than plastic, but the plastic ... um... er... nevermind. Considering the size of the diamond particles being so much larger than the carbides (I believe), it looks to me like the diamond particles are just going to break the carbides out of the matrix before it actually sharpens them.

Yeah, it is a bad analogy. I guess I should go back and just eliminate it. But I think I'll leave it so others can get a laugh, too.
 
Could you sharpen a plastic wall with stone marbles? Get sharp plastic for marble walls? Make a stone wall out of marbles? What? (Sad to say I understood what I think you meant until I tried to explain it to someone, then I got all goofed up....)

Just a quick comment on the stain resistance of the 2 grades - while D2 may indeed offer some degree of resistance to staining under mild conditions, such as dampness or fresh water, it is not by any strech considered a stainless steel. If you keep it clean after use, it will probably be fine in most situations you encounter for an EDC, but if you encounter anything harsher than water (chemicals, acidic foods, salts, acids), the D2 will stain or discolor (or even pit) far quicker than the 420V. If you anticipate any need for a true stainless blade, the D2 should not be in the same grouping as 420V (or 154 CM or 440C or even plain old 420), strictly from a corrosion resistance standpoint.
 
no question.......420V hands dowm!

D2 rusts while I look at it here in Hawaii.....420V stays sharp 5x as long as D2............420V is a little brittle, but for a camp knife/bowie/machete I would opt for BG 42 or maybe 3V, not 420V.
 
Originally posted by ejt
Could you sharpen a plastic wall with stone marbles? Get sharp plastic for marble walls? Make a stone wall out of marbles? What? (Sad to say I understood what I think you meant until I tried to explain it to someone, then I got all goofed up....)
Click to expand...

But still no one will attempt to answer my question (with or without the screwed-up analogy). :(
 
Geode,

You could always call Darrel, ask his opinions and get to know one of the industry's nicest guys. Hopefully (unlike me), you wont have to pay international phone charges and worry about the possibility of getting him up at 3.00am thanks to time zone miscalculations!

Andrew Limsk
 
LOL I still love that analogy. I didn't think that the carbides would break out, as they should still be held in by the matrix unless they were jutting out? I don't know. If they are knocked out by diamonds, why not softer stones? It seems like the strength of the steel, being less than that of the carbides would be to blame for failure as opposed to the size of the molecules of the sharpener.

I'm probably very, very lost right now.
 
I don't know either. It just seems unlikely that you can actually sharpen the carbides with particles that are magnitudes larger than those carbides. Sharpen the steel matrix, yet. Expose more carbides, yes. Sharpen those carbides?
 
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