CPM 9V. Why isnt this used?

Joined
Oct 5, 1998
Messages
3,148
On Paper it seems to be the ultimate?

Why isnt it used?

Ed? RJ?

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"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
Anthony :

On Paper it seems to be the ultimate?

Do you have any specs. for it?

You might want to drop Phil Wilson an email (seamountpcw@earthlink.net) he has been working with the CPM steels for awhile.

-Cliff
 
Anthony: CPM9V would be "the bomb!". Unfortunately, the folks ar Crucible just won't make the stock sizes we need. I have tried everything, including begging.

Honestly, I am starting to think this whole steel thing has gotten a bit out of control. Too many customers just want to know "what steel?" and, if the answer is one of the new whiz-bang alloys, they're happy. So is the maker, who may or not have a clue about heat treating or processing. The problem is that there is SO MUCH MORE to the picture than just the steel. As I've said before (and I probably sound like a broken record), a given steel can be made into a blade that posesses the optimum characteristics obtainable for that type of steel, or turned into a piece of poopoo. ANY STEEL! Generally, the more complex the steel, the more potential to screw it up, or at least have a "hit-or miss" opportunity. This is particularly true of the High Speed category (M2), where heat treatment can be ruined with just a minute or two of soak time. Too much, or too little, and, it's lost.
And, remember-every steel manufacturer is going to add some hype to their products as far as claims go.
The claim to fame for the CPM alloys is Vanadium content and the method of processing. Note that it is also the element, added at just 2.4%, that makes BG42 superior to ATS34 (in addition to superior processing-which should not be discounted). Vanadium makes CPM3V superior to A2 (again-the particle method of production kicks up the mechanical properties).
Comparison of Charpy values and wear resistance values at various hardness levels is interesting, as long as you realize that the Rc hardness is the primary factor that determines how easily the edge will flatten after repeated "push" cuts (no slicing). That is because the compressive strength is pretty well directly proportional to Rc hardness, for any alloy. That is also why I like my steels on the hard side. With that, comes the need to mitigate the loss of toughness as a given steel is used at a higher hardness. Now, here is a quandry: If the tensile strength goes UP with increasing hardness, how come the toughness goes DOWN? It's the reason that you can't buy a bolt that's stronger than 250,000 PSI, because you need some ductility to help prevent catastrophic failure that can be initiated by some small defect-a scratch, spot of rust, internal microscopic defect, etc. This is the reason that aircraft engines aren't held on by one, BIG bolt-you could show it good on paper, but, you can't count on it in reality. Obvious, right?
Instead, you use more, smaller bolts, so each bolt takes less load than it is capable of. Then, you add extra bolts, so that some can fail, and the engine will still stay on. It's a darn good idea!

Glass is about 1000 times stronger on paper than it is in real life-the reason? any scratch-even those so small you can't see them, decreases the strength. The scratch made by a glass cutter weakens the glass so much you can snap it in your hands, with the guarantee that it will break along the scratch!.

So, why am I rambling on? Tensile strength is an ultimate value obtained by testing specially shaped specimens that are loaded in a very precise way. You can't apply a pure tensile force to a knife blade when you use it! You would have to put it in a vise and pull on it. Can you break ANY knife that way? Even Superman BENDS steel to break it, and things loaded in bending break over a wide range of applied loads, usually much lower that the material is supposed to withstand on paper, often due to factors related to crack initiation and propogation, that have a lot to do with things like sharp edges, corrosion, notches and scratches, etc.
Every good piece of aircraft structure is designed to minimize bending loads, because you can't count on the strength of things that are being bent. Good designs load components in tension or shear, where you can count on coinsistent performance to known stress levels.

So, when you stick a knife in a log and bend it, you are on shaky ground. When you twist it while bending it, it's even worse. If you want to use a knife this way, look for one with rounded edges, and smooth transitions between thick and thin areas. And, don't pry with a rusty knife!

And, whether it bends, chips out, tears or whatever, it's going to be ruined, or at least require a good reconditioning. Use a knife to CUT, and you've none of these problems. My advice: Look for a great piece of steel, PROPERLY heat treated, CRYO treated and MULTIPLE tempered, that has a reasonable proportion of thickness to length, and a grind that matches the expected level of abuse. If you have this, you can sheak up a point or two higher, and get more wear resistance and less risk of edge flattening, without having to worry too much about chipping (particularly with the CPM alloys)

Enough for now!

RJ Martin
 
Thanks RJ,
as usual, I am learning something every time you pipe up....

now maybe If I could getsome 9V......
 
RJ :

Rc hardness is the primary factor that determines how easily the edge will flatten

This is exactly what I assumed as well. I figured that if the steel was very hard that I could put a nice low angle on the edge and that it would hold it for a long time without rolling. I have also noticed this from experience.

What I don't understand is how come the charpy values drops off dramatically as the steel RC increases. What I am guessing is even though the elastic limit is being increased that the breaking point is being lowered. This would mean that it would resist being deformed strongly but once you passed that limit it would deform strongly and break soon after.

-Cliff

-Cliff
 
Cliff: The answer to your question lies in the difference between ductile and brittle failure. When you load a bolt to failure, the steel will elongate as the load increases. The cross sectional area decreases, which means that the area reacting the load decreases. This increases the stress (Force per unit area), causing more elongation and ultimately, failure, if the load continues to be applied. Low Carbon steel can elongate as much as 35% before failure. This is a good thing, because the bolt may deform without failing (hitting a pothole in your car, for example. The deformed bolt could be detected during an inspection and replaced.
As the hardness increases, ductility decreases. You will notice that many charts don't even list tensile strength after about 60 Rc or so-it goes thru the roof, and kind of becomes irrelevant. MOST knife steels, except for the very simple oil hardening ones, aren't going to deform noticeably before they fail-this is the bend or break issue that has been discussed at great length on other posts. For years, forgers claimed a superior blade, because the softer back would allow the knife to bend before failing. Of course, the (harder) edge cracked early on in the bend, due to it's higher hardness, and the blade was ruined, but, the knifet stayed in one piece.
Not to say that there isn't some advantage to this-the japanese sword, with it's incredibly intricate transition between the hard edge and softer back, was able to take more abuse because of the varying hardness levels. No one ever bragged about being able to put them in a vise and bend them, however. the benefit came from ability to react to impact. The edge might be nicked, but, the transition zone (hamon) would act as a "crack stopper", and keep the blade in one piece. At least, that's my understanding.

OK-dorry for the digression. So, when you take a highly alloyed steel, and crank it up to a hardness that's geared to maximum edge holding and wear resistance, you are no longer in the realm of ductile failure. When the load is high enough, the steel experiences a brittle and catastrophic failure. The point of initiation of such a failure will be the weakest point in the steel-generally an area of lower cross sectional area, a sharp notch (stress concentrator), or some internal defect like intergrannular corrosion or an inclusion. Note that some of these failure points are material based (inclusions, poor grain structure, intergrannular corrosion, and others are related to the design (notches and abrupt cross sectional area changes.

How often have you heard that stick tang knives break at the front of the handle? If the transition between the blade (larger area) and the tang(smaller area) isn't accomplished using a smooth radius, free of sharp notches, that's just what's going to happen. If the transition is made properly, then, the strength will be there.

Look under your car's hood-do you see sharp internal corners, or do you see various sized fillet radii? that's why. even sheet metal parts aren't bent to sharp corners-as the thickness of the material increases, so does the minimum recommended bend radius.

What bothers me about this whole debate, is that. you should never be using a well designed and built knife in a way that would cause it to fail in this manner. If the blade width, thickness and grind are properly matched to the blade length, and the heat treatment is correct, you should never be able to come close to breaking the blade.

If you take a fillet knife, crank it up to Rc65 and whack a tree with it, it's going to break. That's why camp knives are generally 1/4" thick minimum, 1.5" wide minimum, and don't have deep hollow grinds with .010 thick edges.

What the CPM alloys (as well as BG42) offer, is the ability to cram more alloying additions (that improve wear resistance) into the alloy and have it retain toughness, or even improve on it. This is accomplished through the refinement of the internal grain structure of the steel. the grains are smaller, internal defects are virtually nonexistent, and the carbides are small and uniformly distributed. Because of the higher Vanadium content, the working hardness of the blade can be decreased a little, allowing for better toughness. I have never seen a blade that could be Rc60 and still bend-I did this with my first CPM3V blade. It's a great steel.

But, again, PLEASE don't ever forget that the steel is only half the equation. The knifemaker and heat treater untimately determine the strength/performance/edge holding/etc, etc, etc of every blade. This is the only explaination of why two apparently equal knives can be so different. Knifemaking isn't only science-it's an art. Try not to let the technology obscure this point.

RJ Martin


 
RJ - I just learned a whol heck of a lot there. I have read some this before, but never really understood it. You have made many things much clearer for me. Thanks!

Now I can see why there are good knife makers and then there are great knife makers, of which, you are one.
 
Hey RJ I am working on a sword made out of Cpm3v. I was wondering how you heat treat your 3v.

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-Greg Johnson
ICQ#4236341


 
Great stuff RJ!


>Rc hardness is the primary factor that determines how easily the
> edge will flatten

Does this imply that our current cool-alloy darling, Talonite, should flatten quickly in push-cutting? It gets measured as a very soft Rc (40s), but people have been saying amazing things about the edge holding due to the carbides. So has anyone done some hard straight whittling and seen the edge flatten quickly? Should it flatten quickly if I do the standard rolling-chop of veggies on a wood or hard plastic cutting board?

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Joe, that was the first thing that crossed my mind as well and note that came up when Boye's 440C and Cobalt blades were brought up awhile ago in the main forum. Exactly as I would have thought the low RC Cobalt blades rolled much easier.

However everyone who has used Talonite says the opposite. Check out a recent post by Rob in the following where he comments on exactly this feature of Talonite :

www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002194.html

and again there are the recent direct comparasions by Ron Hood against A2 showing Talonite to fare better in this regard.

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002398.html

What I think is happening is that there may be nonlocal strength and toughness abilities in Talonite that a Charpy tests misses because its so localized.

RJ, I realize the difference between elastic deformation and total material failure. What I am interested in is the behavior of a low RC "tough" steel and a high RC "edge holding" steel, as you increase the load. What I think would happen is that the high RC steel would resist deformation stronger under a low load, but its failure point might would be about the same as the elastic limit (or even lower) than the "tough" steel. I am interested specifically in how the edge behaves in this situation for example chopping on or slicing through really hard materials.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 28 May 1999).]
 
Guys: I am &#^&#*#* off! Just typed for about 30 minutes, went to check the talonite stuff, and, when I came back to this page, all my words were gone! I'll regroup and try to respond this weekend, OK. I had some good stuff, too!

RJ Martin
 
RJMartin,

I can't wait you will post again your lost message!

The former two gave me some confirmations about some notions I have, but now I know they are true.

I need more word-of-wisdom from you.
 
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