CPM S110V

R

Rhodies

Joined
Jul 27, 2017
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Looking for opinions on this blade steel mainly on ease of sharpening and edge stability. I think I have read that Diamond Stones are pretty much a 'must have' and that SiC Stones won't get it done. Your thoughts, please...
 
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Rhods, I don't have a knife w/ that steel. I do have one with S90V steel which is not so far off. SiC could do it but you'd be better off sticking
with diamond. A two sided stone in coarse / fine would serve you well. DM
 
Rhodies said:
Looking for opinions on this blade steel mainly on ease of sharpening and edge stability. I think I have read that Diamond Stones are pretty much a 'must have' and that SiC Stones won't get it done. Your thoughts, please...
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For me diamonds do it quick, easy and hair whittling. At least two super experienced people in the knife world use the SIC and say it is all you need at least as long as you want a toothy edge. Makes a great work knife edge and edge for processing hunting game.

This edge I have determined through many trials is just not for me. I like a more polished edge.

S110V takes that kind of edge. Some versions of S110V hold it pretty well and some crap out right away and become a "working edge". S110V is certainly not my first choice. For me M390 and M4 just work better for me because they guarantee a VERY sharp edge for a longer period. This is what I want, need and enjoy.

Once the very sharp edge fizzles out on all three steels then the S110V is going to keep that "sort of good enough" edge very significantly longer.

I say get some and enjoy it for what it is. One super affordable and very enjoyable knife with S110V is the Spyderco UK PK. Something tougher and larger is the Para Military 2. I have had excellent experiences with both of those in this steel.
 
What Wowbagger said.
If you like a polished edge, M390, M4, and ZDP-189 would be better than S110V, based on my limited experience.
 
David Martin said:
Rhods, I don't have a knife w/ that steel. I do have one with S90V steel which is not so far off. SiC could do it but you'd be better off sticking
with diamond. A two sided stone in coarse / fine would serve you well. DM
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David,

From my limited experience S90V should get sharp easier than S110V. I don’t know why. The knives compared are Manix 2 G10 Blurple and Manix 2 LW Orange dealer exclusive.

I’m still struggling with S110V as we always say here, it’s the technique and not the steel. I read somewhere that probably the Niobium Carbide might be the culprit, being harder than Vanadium Carbide. I might be wrong, but that’s how I found, when using DMT EEF for quick touch up.

Slightly OT, I see that K390 has almost similar compositions with S110V except Cr. Will it be hard to sharpen like S110V too? Thinking of getting a Police 4 ...
 
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Chris, you bring up a good point. I need to do more reading on the hardness of these elements after heat treated.
Perhaps a grit a touch more aggressive would speed up sharpening for you. I have been using a fine diamond when touching up my S90V
and this grit even used gives me quick results. I'm merely back honing removing burrs and such. Not a full edge leading sharping. DM
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
(...)I’m still struggling with S110V as we always say here, it’s the technique and not the steel. I read somewhere that probably the Niobium Carbide might be the culprit, being harder than Vanadium Carbide. I might be wrong, but that’s how I found, when using DMT EEF for quick touch up.
(...)
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I'm not so sure Niobium Carbide (NbC) is harder than Vanadium Carbide. It's kind of hard to find specific hardness values for it, but the one charted reference I've seen (below), from an industry technical services source, indicates it's somewhat less hard than tungsten carbide (WC). If so, it'd also be less hard than vanadium carbide, silicon carbide and maybe even aluminum oxides, or some versions of them.

untitled.png


hardness-comparison.png
 
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Sometime ago i found these specific values:

Vanadium carbide - 2950 Vickers
Niobium carbide - 2400 Vickers
Chromium carbide - 2280 Vickers
Molybdenum carbide - 1950 Vickers
 
I’m not sure where I read that comment on Niobium Carbide being harder than Vanadium Carbide :eek:

I like challenging myself to create nice enough edge for dry shaving. So far I haven’t been able to achieve good enough results on this S110V. There are several discussions on using Diamond for high carbide steel, I did follow that. Even Luong/Bluntcut has given some tips (not yet able to try, being weekend tinkerer), where I cannot test yet.

To clarify, the S90V M2 belongs to my friend, so I didn’t get chance to try my shaving edge on it. However using the same EEF on it, the edge was restored nicely, easier compared to S110V. The S110V could get sharp but just not there yet for my liking.

I’m currently in the process of thinning the edge angle and will report back. Weekend is over, back to work with VG10 & it’s good enough ;).
 
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Chris "Anagarika" said:
I’m not sure where I read that comment on Niobium Carbide being harder than Vanadium Carbide :eek:

I like challenging myself to create nice enough edge for dry shaving. So far I haven’t been ableist to achieve good enough results on this S110V. There are several discussions on using Diamond for high carbide steel, I did follow that. Even Luong/Bluntcut has given some tips (not yet able to try, being weekend tinkerer).

To clarify, the S90V M2 belongs to my friend, so I didn’t get chance to try my shaving edge on it. However using the same EEF on it, the edge was restored nicely, easier compared to S110V. The S110V could get sharp but just not there yet for my liking.
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For what it's worth, I've also liked using a Fine DMT (or even Coarse) for my Manix2 in S90V, as DM has indicated. Haven't done any major rebevelling on that knife, as it was one of the few that actually had factory geometry I liked pretty well. I've thinned the edge geometry a tiny bit more (just can't help myself :D ), but nothing heavy. I put off doing anything with it for a long while, as I thought it'd be challenging. But with a Coarse/Fine diamond hone, it's easy-peasy. Left me wondering what I was worried about in the first place.

I don't have any 110V, so I can't speak to any differences in how it might respond to similar treatment. But in most cases, when I've seen an edge that doesn't quite respond to a relatively finer-grit touchup, going a grit or two coarser gets things back in shape again. Oftentimes, that's also enough to get it responding better to a followup at finer grit, if choosing to take it further. It may just be an issue of needing a little more thinning at the apex than an EEF is suited for, starting out.


David
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
Found the article saying Niobium Carbide being harder:
http://zknives.com/knives/custom/pwmdsk120.shtml
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What bugs me about that, like a lot of other claims in general, is there's no number attached to the hardness claim, or even a citation of the source of data for it. The zknives site is one I usually put faith in, but I'd be interested to know what the factual basis for the statement was.

Even among the (much, much more technical) published articles from scientific/research/engineering sources, the numbers seem to be all over the map. Many companies or researchers seem to be experimenting with making or using niobium carbides, using a wide range of exotic or specialized processes (none of which seem even remotely similar to the way cutlery steels are manufactured), with widely-ranging results. Most seem to focus on using it as a wear-resistant coating, using some sort of deposition/diffusion process. I've seen one reference to what's called 'ternary carbides' (three elements forming them), one of which is a carbide formed from vanadium, niobium and carbon (called 'niobium-vanadium carbide', NbVC2). A charted hardness value for that particular carbide has it being harder than vanadium carbide itself. But in every instance comparing NbC (niobium carbide) to other carbides we're familiar with, like tungsten carbide or vanadium carbide, all are showing NbC to be at least somewhat less hard than VC, if not much less hard.

I get the impression it all comes down to the very specific processes used to create it, which seems to make all the difference. I haven't seen anything yet, describing a specific method or process in which it's used in alloys to make cutlery/tool steels specifically, or what hardness value comes out of such a specific process.


David
 
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Edge stability isn't great, any side to side deflection could easily chip. So in that case use a micro-bevel. Else obtuse edge depending on the media cutting.

Diamonds still take forever. I haven't tried with SiC yet. I would assume if it works for Ankersons it will work for you.
 
David,

Thanks. Agree with your points. Just wondering where I picked it up :eek:.

Mo2,
Below 600 grit mesh I understand SiC will plow through the steel matrix. I haven’t concluded my test yet. It slices through paperboard drink packages fine. Still doesn’t shave well, unlike my other steel. Another challenging one is BM D2.

Today I broke in new diamond plate (400 & 1000). Probably will try that out.
 
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Found an article in .pdf format from Bohler-Uddeholm (tool & cutlery steel manufacturer). I've seen this before; I think I'd found it some time back, while searching along the same topic lines re: hardness of carbides and abrasives used to grind them. There's a Knoop hardness chart on page 10 of the article, which includes many/all of the cutlery-relevant materials to be ground and abrasives used to grind them. It's the most direct link I can find so far, specifically relating Niobium Carbide to the manufacture of cutlery/tool steels. NbC's place on the chart puts it between chromium carbide and tungsten carbide in Knoop hardness, at about ~ 2400 Knoop. Compare to Vanadium Carbide on the same chart, shown at around ~ 2700 Knoop, and silicon carbide at ~2500 Knoop. By that chart anyway, SiC should be able to handle NbC specifically, though maybe not the vanadium carbides in 110V.

The article is an interesting read on grinding tool steels anyway, even aside from the specific discussion in this thread.

http://bucorp.com/media/grinding-english_t_12122_e1.pdf
 
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Obsessed with Edges said:
Found an article in .pdf format from Bohler-Uddeholm (tool & cutlery steel manufacturer). I've seen this before; I think I'd found it some time back, while searching along the same topic lines re: hardness of carbides and abrasives used to grind them. There's a Knoop hardness chart on page 10 of the article, which includes many/all of the cutlery-relevant materials to be ground and abrasives used to grind them. It's the most direct link I can find so far, specifically relating Niobium Carbide to the manufacture of cutlery/tool steels. NbC's place on the chart puts it between chromium carbide and tungsten carbide in Knoop hardness, at about ~ 2400 Knoop. Compare to Vanadium Carbide on the same chart, shown at around ~ 2700 Knoop, and silicon carbide at ~2500 Knoop. By that chart anyway, SiC should be able to handle NbC specifically, though maybe not the vanadium carbides in 110V.

The article is an interesting read on grinding tool steels anyway, even aside from the specific discussion in this thread.

http://bucorp.com/media/grinding-english_t_12122_e1.pdf
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Great find!!!
Recommend reading it but here's a quick screen shot of the chart.

Screenshot_2017-12-18-14-21-28.png

http://bucorp.com/media/grinding-english_t_12122_e1.pdf

They talk about cbn being the only real option for grinding wheels. But for sharpening we have plenty of diamond stones to choose from and a few cbn options.
 
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