Creeping pacifism ...

Joined
Dec 6, 2004
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Munk’s thread from the other day has raised some big questions for me. The thread about the accidental death of that little boy.

The Cantina responded as I knew it would. An unstinting, even unthinking upsurge of smoke and condolence. In less than a moment, we understood the tearing, wailing grief the family, of the neighbourhood, of anyone connected. And people spoke of their own experiences, of the healing that’s perhaps never going to be complete. I mean to honour you all.

On another forum, there’s been a ruckus about a film crew that did several “takes” of news footage, rearranging the body of a dead Lebanese boy on a stretcher for maximum effect. He too had been smothered, under rubble. I am not meaning to take sides in the Israel/Hizbollah dispute – I’m certain that there are 7 year olds in Haifa being pulled from the rubble too.

My point? Simply, this lad is just as dead as Munk’s friend. And somewhere, his mother, his friends, his family grieves. They are feeling the same wailing, tearing grief at a senseless death.

We all feel awful, but resigned about "collateral damage." We’ve talked eloquently about how it is "necessary" though "regrettable." War really is hell, y'know?.

But the immediacy of the death Munk described - one of his son's friends, who'd eaten in his house, probably slept in a tent in his backyard, whose laugh and holler had echoed in the TV room – it’s rocked my perspective. The deaths of innocents are not justified, anywhere. We are all held in a web of relationships - and grieving is our common currency, whatever our religious or ethnic or political contexts.

I am finding it more and more difficult to accept the view that bringing death to one's opponents is an acceptable policy tool. Particularly when the political ends upheld in the war are typically questionable at best, and other means haven’t been fully explored. I do not blame the soldiers – who are typically honourable, trustworthy, and trying to do their jobs. I blame the people on all sides who set them out against each other. As Clausewitz famously said, “War is an extension of politics by other means” ... but most often (and in my view, in ALL current crises in the news) an illegitimate extension of those politics.


There are other ways, if we were willing to choose them. The deaths of children, on all sides of a conflict, shows why we need to do so.

Tom.
 
I think some wars you can fight with gunz and some you can't.

Any time you fight a war in a populated area you are going to have innocent people killed.

Hezbollah is pretty much fighting near schools, and other areas hoping that the return fire will kill innocent people and win the media war for them. I heard some UN guys on TV saying they were launching rockets right beside their compound, hoping no doubt that the Israeli fire would hit the UN guys too.

I think you have to give the Arab guys credit for their tactics. I think they are on the wrong side, but they drove the USSR out of Afghanistan, have the US mired down in Iraq, and Israel is having a hard time in Lebanon taking way more casualties than they expected.

Just like in the American Revolution when the British marched in line and the Colonist shot behind trees etc., the mid east guys have figured out a new way to fight a huge technologically advanced army with almost no money or central command. The sad part with this new fighting is that it deliberately puts innocent people in the line of fire in an attempt to gain media and propaganda advantage.
 
Tom, it is a difficult issue. Particularly on this, the day after a cross continental terror plot was foiled to blow up airplanes simultaneusly.
Moslem radical homocidal groups are all over the world trying to kill us. It is going to be very difficult to stop this.


munk
 
Hollow, another thing Clausewitz perceptively said is that "A general typically prepares for the last war." A scathing criticism - as you've said, our opponents in this thing have learned how to fight effectively against the type of military that Nation States have thought they need ... all it took was losing any moral compass when it comes to innocent casualties.

Munk, I agree that it's hugely difficult trying to fight such an opponent - as you say, they're entirely willing to murder as many innocents as they can, because their real war isn't with soldiers. It's with public opinion.

I don't know the answers. All I know is that my own response were my son to be killed isn't so different from what it would have been for the Lebanese boss I once worked for. Or his relatives, still in Lebanon. It's a mark of our shame, as a species, that we let our empathy be over-ridden by our other sh#t.
 
In war there is also an ememy. If you don't defeat the enemy you loose. If we loose this war we loose everything.
 
aproy1101 said:
In war there is also an enemy. If you don't defeat the enemy you loose. If we loose this war we loose everything.

And I hate to say it but the population of So. Lebanon, a lot of them are supporting those guys. If they weren't they would have kicked them out like they kicked the PLO out in the 80's. So while I hate to see the people killed, and I think that in the long run this will create more bad guys this overwhelming response of Israel, I think the whole thing about the hardship on the population in the media is true but also is part of the stragety to de link the population from their militia.

I personally would like to see one side, Israel, the Iraqi's the Lebanese, the Palestinians, ONE of those guys try the same approach as Dr King just for a change. As long as you have tit for tat it is always easy to blame the other side, where if any of them would fight using passive resistance and peaceful protest they would gain the international moral high ground.

I don't really think we'll lose everything if we lose any war unless it's a ground invasion of the US.
 
hollowdweller said:
And I hate to say it but the population of So. Lebanon, a lot of them are supporting those guys.

If they are not actively supporting Hezbollah, they are at least looking the other way while Hezbollah hides and manuvers amongst them. Probably a fair number of them are tacitly cooperative because of the treatment they would get from Hezbollah if they were not.

However, if repercussions from Hezbollah were the lesser of two concerns, they would cease to cooperate and Hezbollah would either be chased out or left in the open. It appears that Israel is trying to make Hezbollah the lesser of their concerns and this cannot be done without generating huge criticism.

Unfortunately it is probably the only way to conclude the matter, and the fact remains that Hezbollah started this and is intent on killing all the little boys in Israel.
 
Tom, your point about grieving for every kid, instead of kids we like, is well taken. Kids are apolitical, blank slates when born, and pick up biases, beliefs, and hatreds from the adults as they get older. By the age of 8 or 10 some are even capable of atrocities. Any religion that demands the death and removal of all "infidels", and that holds suicide and martyrdom as valid paths to "heaven" ( and throws virgins into the bargain for those who lack the concept of an adequately enticing heaven), I see as a threat to me and mine.

I'm not going to suggest I have an answer, nor have I read their Koran in its entirety. The best boss I ever had was a Lebanese guy whose wife was Syrian...she was devoutly Islamic and he was Druse. I used to bounce their babies and we routinely ate together...I would literally have followed that guy anywhere. He's gone now, and I can't ask his opinion. But I KNOW ( I have several personal memories of shootings we were involved in) that his operational method and mine were identical. (1) Innocents get vigorously defended no matter what race (2) Anyone who jumps up with a gun (or bomb) gets shot before doing damage, if possible, and (3) There is plenty of time later for debriefing and fact finding. WHAT I DON'T KNOW is how to handle evil doers who persist in using innocents as shields. The Israelis have apparently have lost enough innocent women and children, said "ENOUGH", and are willing to forget (1) in favor of (2) and (3).

The problem seems insoluable until the innocents being killed are YOURS, at which point I start shooting , just like the Israelis. Pray for Peace, and pass me some more ammunition, please.

jurassicnarc
 
I'm talking about the wider war. No matter. We still have to win. Is it going to be easy? No. No great deed is easy.

The political forum here is a joke. If you wannt rant about a speeding ticket you'll get some responses, but post a political thread, and you get nothing.
 
Israel did not start the war, but I hope they get the time they need to finish it.

If a nation does not destroy the enemies that attack it there will not be a nation left.

I am glad we do not speak German or Japanese. It could have happened if this country did not defend itself.

When a country is forced to defend itself against a group or groups that have sworn to wipe it from the face of the earth, I find it difficult to feel sorry for the victims of the side that brought the conflict about.

This will not be the last time we see such conflict.

I'd like to see more sympathy for our troops that are wounded and killed in war or our fellow americans that were killed on 911. Or how about a sigh of relief for all the innocent civilians and children that just escaped being killed by terrorists?

Pacifisim is fine as long there are realists to defend the pacifists.
 
All innocents, Steve. All. Cast the circle as wide as we can.

We're not, as a species, going to stop killing each other and each other's children 'till we recognize that there's no essential difference between an Afghani or Sudanese or Israeli or American child and my own son. None are worth killing for the sake of a bad cause.

And historically, though there are striking exceptions, most wars have not been fought for causes of other sorts. I still suport the "Just War" criteria that you need (1) a just cause, and (2) to fight in a just manner. Precious few wars, past or present, seem to meet that standard, in my view. Absent that, pacifism seems an honourable response.
 
Steve Poll said:
Israel did not start the war, but I hope they get the time they need to finish it.

Not sure they will ever finish it.

They spent what(?) almost 20 years in Lebanon the last time fighting the PLO, and while the PLO left, the only real result is that Hezbollah took it's place and Hezbollah is Lebanese, unlike the PLO.

I think the BEST they can hope for is to set Hezbollah back another 20 years, but it will be harder this time because they have such popular support and learned a lot from the last time they fought.

Until the bad guys over there are more concerned with their job, or their future or SOMETHING other than fighting all the time I don't hold much hope for the region.

Israel and Egypt are at peace. If you look at how that was achieved while Israel did give back what they took in a war to Egypt, the main solution to that peace treaty was not military but diplomatic. They came REAL close to a deal with Syria like that too but not close enough.
 
richardallen said:
No one has the right to take the life of another.

Yet we all have a duty to protect ourselves, our families, and our nation from our enemies. No one is talking about taking life in vain; we are not suggesting that we should strap on a bomb belt and walk into the nearest bagel shop. But, when at war, the objective is to kill the enemy and to break his will to resists; and, that always will result in civilian casualties. The only way to minimize the number is by hitting hard enough to get the enemy to surrender unconditionally asap.

n2s
 
TomFetter said:
And historically, though there are striking exceptions, most wars have not been fought for causes of other sorts. I still suport the "Just War" criteria that you need (1) a just cause, and (2) to fight in a just manner. Precious few wars, past or present, seem to meet that standard, in my view. .

I can't disagree with this.

Except, if you have to fight, I don't believe in a just manner. We are fighting in a just manner in the middle east right now and are losing too many american lives because of it. If you have to fight, soundly destroy your enemy.
 
I won't talk for the US and US public opinion about your military losses overseas; as a Canadian, it's not my place.

OTOH, Canada's taking its turn leading the NATO forces in Kandahar just now. We've lost more soldiers in the past month than in the previous 6 or so. And public opinion is wobbly in some areas as a result, though our politicos are making brave noises.

But no, Canada's not losing soldiers because we're fighting justly. IMO, we're hardly fighting at all. All Canada's losses to date would have been an enormously light morning's work in WW1. If this war is worth fighting on its own merits - for some just principles being defended - then it's worth mobilizing into the kind of offensive we saw in previous wars. Taking THOSE risks, because the cause is just - so we can achieve the military ends and get to the peace part.

And if the cause does not justify a wholesale commitment of our forces, as it appears, it probably doesn't justify the life of Afghani children either. A life is, after all, worth a life. If the war needs to be fought - then fight it. If it doesn't need to be fought, we should stop killing people.
 
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