crucible steels?

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Jul 7, 2007
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I have heard before that cpm 10v, s90v, s60v, and m4 all have better edge retention than s30v. for a while I heard s60v was the best in edge retention but now I see more about s90, m4 and 10v.
can anyone tell me theoretically which crucible steels have the best edge retention? thank you.
the steels I am interested in are
s60v
s90v
cpm d2
cpm 154
cpm m4
cpm 110v
cpm 10v (is this the same as 110v?)
 
CPM 110V according to Crucible's pdf, but I've heard a lot of nightmare stories about it microchipping while sharpening. CPM-M4 at 64-65 might actually be the best at edge retention considering that the Spyderco Mule M4 at 62 is already one of the best steels in edge retention.

S30V at 61 should hold its own against any steel in edge retention, but usually they are run at only 57-59. Kinda like how AUS8 at higher hardness levels is on par with 154CM/S30V/D2 but is typically run so soft that performance is a league below.
 
CPM 3V
CPM S90V
CPM M4
ZDP-189 (Hitachi, not CPM, but a strong contender.)
CPM D2

All of those are about as wear resistant and tough as any knife steel ever has been.
 
CPM 110V according to Crucible's pdf, but I've heard a lot of nightmare stories about it microchipping while sharpening.

Where have you heard this from? This is new to me. All my S110V has had no issues.

I wonder how long before all of it is gone.

Yes, me too. Hopefully large stocks were produced before they filed for Chapter 11. Hopefully CPM will come out of it well and bring all of their people back in.
Article from May:http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/business/s_624172.html
 
I have heard before that cpm 10v, s90v, s60v, and m4 all have better edge retention than s30v. for a while I heard s60v was the best in edge retention but now I see more about s90, m4 and 10v.
can anyone tell me theoretically which crucible steels have the best edge retention? thank you.
the steels I am interested in are
s60v
s90v
cpm d2
cpm 154
cpm m4
cpm 110v
cpm 10v (is this the same as 110v?)

S30V has better edge retention than S60V. It has more vanadium carbides than S60V despite having less vanadium, and it's tougher and easier to sharpen too. S30V does everything better than S60V, that's why S60V is discontinued.
 
S30V does everything better than S60V, that's why S60V is discontinued.

Actually S90V is S60V replacement as a premium stainless tool steel. S30V was designed for cutlery.

Where are the reports of S110V problems? Mine doesn't have that problem. Phil Wilson , who runs it a bit higher hasn't been reporting this either AFAIK. He's spoken pretty well about it.
 
Actually S90V is S60V replacement as a premium stainless tool steel. S30V was designed for cutlery.

Where are the reports of S110V problems? Mine doesn't have that problem. Phil Wilson , who runs it a bit higher hasn't been reporting this either AFAIK. He's spoken pretty well about it.

I remember a few years ago reading about chipping problems on another forum. I've never used S110V myself so I don't know. I'm not allowed to link to another forum even if I could find the thread. It's probably the heat treat I assume.
 
I remember a few years ago reading about chipping problems on another forum. I've never used S110V myself so I don't know. I'm not allowed to link to another forum even if I could find the thread. It's probably the heat treat I assume.


Its probably like the chipping issue that D2 and S30V have yet no one can produce a photo.
 
Where are the reports of S110V problems? Mine doesn't have that problem. Phil Wilson , who runs it a bit higher hasn't been reporting this either AFAIK. He's spoken pretty well about it.

I certainly haven't had any problems with my Shallot.


I remember a few years ago reading about chipping problems on another forum. I've never used S110V myself so I don't know. I'm not allowed to link to another forum even if I could find the thread. It's probably the heat treat I assume.

I use my Shallot 110v as a work knife (construction), not abusive, but hard. I like a sharp cutter, so the first thing I did was reprofile the edge to give better cutting angle. I don't go to hair whittling and such, but my knives will take the hair off your arm.

I have been using it for about 8 months, and never had a chip, spot of rust even in my really sweaty pockets, or a problem resharpening.

Robert
 
Its probably like the chipping issue that D2 and S30V have yet no one can produce a photo.

I have an s30v atwood prybaby that fell out of my pocket a few years ago and hit a tiled floor and it chipped a corner.....I reshaped it on a stone, I would have been quited upset if it were the tip of a blade.
 
Personally I like S30V just fine....

Edge retention is all very well and good but the harder a steel is, the harder it is to sharpen!

Its a fine line between retaining an edge and allowing for an edge to be obtained without having to invest hours of labour into the task.

Edge profiles and heat treat also contribute a lot to the end result. The type of steel is only one factor.
 
Its probably like the chipping issue that D2 and S30V have yet no one can produce a photo.

here is a photo of my s30v 941st that had a chip near the tip. it did sharpen out and i havent had any problems since
IMG_0355.jpg
 
We have used a bunch of CPM S30V and had no problems at all. We like it better than any other steel we have used for knives because it seems to be easy enough to sharpen for most users yet the edge retention is very good. When we first started using it we had heard about the chipping issue and asked Crucible’s metallurgist what was going on. He told us that the issue was with some heat treatment that was being done not the steel. That has been our experience and with 100's of custom knives in the field, not one has had a chipping problem.

In some tests we did prior to accepting S30V as a knife steel, we found that S30V was tougher and held an edge better than D2 which was our favorite at the time. The reason we were interested in a steel besides D2 was a problem D2 has with pitting when it corrodes. The only drawback to S30V, as we see it, is it takes longer to finish and will go through belts much quicker in its heat treated state than anything we have tried to date except M4. That is the price you pay for abrasion resistance.


Heat treatment is the life of any steel. Do a bad job of it and you are asking for big problems.
 
I'll take some MPL-1 and Rex-76...

S125V was available to custom makers for a little while.

For anything that you'll find in a production knife S110V is the ultimate.
 
Scrappy, all the steels you listed make great knives. I have worked will all of them except M4. I had that one on my list for next but liked the look of CPM S110V (on paper) and now am pretty much soaked up in that one. Here's my take on the other 5.

CPM S60V. This was the first CPM stainless. It was an improvement for knife blades over say some of the other in use at the time. Like ATS 34 ect. The problem was the low attainable hardness. Pretty much the best that you could do was RC58. Hardness equals strength so if we could have been able to get it to 60 then would have been able see the full potential. It still made/makes a great knife blade but not much of it around any more.

CPM S90V. Developed as an upgrade for 60V. The aim was better corrosion resistance and higher obtainable hardness. The hardness potential is there but it takes a very high HT temp to get it there. The high temp limits production runs and also Paul Bos is reluctant to run for the custom guys it since it is so hard on his furnance. It is a good steel at RC57/58 but outstanding at 60/61. Both CPM S60V and S90V are hard to grind and finish. They also consume grinding belts at 100% over other more common knife steels. This is true of all the CPM steels (except for CPM D2) below as well
CPM S30V. This one is one of the best multi purpose blade steels. It heat treats nicely and it is easy to get RC60. It lends itself to production blades and custom makers. Corrosion resistance is good or better than say 440C. Toughness even at 60 is adequate for a very fine edge. My favorite application for 30v is fillet knives and some kitchen knives. It also makes a great EDC. Keep in mind that Crucible makes tool steels for the plastics industry, dies, feed screws, ect. On S30V they realized the potential for knife blades and asked some of the makers what we wanted in a good all around steel and worked on something with that in mind. Like all the CPM's good heat treating is essential and there have been some learning curves to get it all balanced. I works fine at RC 58 but has the full potential nearer 60.
CPM 154. The same chemistry as the 154CM but the change to the CPM structure made a noticeable difference. Finer structure allows higher hardness and better performance. I can push this one to 63 easy and with 154Cm the limit is about 61. This steel and S30v work about the same. I like it a little better for hunters due to the improved hardness. Makes a great fillet and kitchen knife as well. To get the higher hardness takes a temper at 975 but I have not seen any degradation in either toughness or corrosion resistance due to this temper cycle. It may show up in the lab but so far no problems in the field use. A good all around steel, pretty friendly to work and makes an excellent blade.

CPM D2 This one was more of an interesting experiment for Crucible. ( I speak for me not them). The improvement over the D2 grade is mostly in the structure. The finer grain allows a higher hardness and better toughness. I made 4 knives with this one so probably not a fair appraisal but got as good or better results with CPM 145 so decided to focus on that grade.

CPM 10V This one is not stainless but has great attainable hardness and adequate toughness even at 63/64. The 10% vanadium combined with the hardness make it the edge holding champ. This is the steel I compare all others against for overall performance. The best application is for a hunter where edge holding is more important than corrosion resistance.

CPM S110V. Introduced as an upgrade for S90V. This steel has the most potential of all so far for a great knife blade. Take a look at the chemistry. Vanadium, Niobium, Moly, Chrome, Colbalt and a whole lot of carbon. I just started working with this one and with the right heat treat it is in the same categrory as 10v for edge holding. I have pushed it up to 64 and seems to have adequate toughness for a very thin grind edge. Crucible shows outstanding corrosion resistance on their data sheet. As the steel sees more use in the field.--and more feedback is available I think this one will stand out. Availabilty is limited and it is a challange to work with -- grind and polish and drill and mill and saw cut are tough, but I think overall it will stand out and be worth the extra effort. We have to thank Kershaw for putting this one into use.

This is all my take and others will have different results and opinions I'm sure but FWIIW..

One more thing. I see a lot of discussion on edge chipping with various steels. On these high alloy steels at high hardness they were developed for the plastics industry where wear resistance and corrosion resistance are the most important. Also many are grinding and sharpening to a very fine edge. Even though these steels are very strong it is easy to exceed the stress level since the material backing up the edge is very small. Stress equals force divided by the area. Big force and small area equals failure. This is especially true if side loads and dynamic loads are applied The CPM steels have to be done at a pretty high hardness RC 57 plus--hardness equals strength-- to prevent the edge from rolling. The fine edge has to stand up there in order for the wear resistance provided by the carbides to come into play. Many of us would rather have fine edge chipping rather than rolling as the failure mode. If you get fine chipping the edge keeps cutting. If you roll it will continue to fatigue and eventually break anyhhow. If this happens you are back to the sharpening stone. Just a little design philosophy.. Phil
 
Scrappy, all the steels you listed make great knives. I have worked will all of them except M4. I had that one on my list for next but liked the look of CPM S110V (on paper) and now am pretty much soaked up in that one. Here's my take on the other 5.

CPM S60V. This was the first CPM stainless. It was an improvement for knife blades over say some of the other in use at the time. Like ATS 34 ect. The problem was the low attainable hardness. Pretty much the best that you could do was RC58. Hardness equals strength so if we could have been able to get it to 60 then would have been able see the full potential. It still made/makes a great knife blade but not much of it around any more.

CPM S90V. Developed as an upgrade for 60V. The aim was better corrosion resistance and higher obtainable hardness. The hardness potential is there but it takes a very high HT temp to get it there. The high temp limits production runs and also Paul Bos is reluctant to run for the custom guys it since it is so hard on his furnance. It is a good steel at RC57/58 but outstanding at 60/61. Both CPM S60V and S90V are hard to grind and finish. They also consume grinding belts at 100% over other more common knife steels. This is true of all the CPM steels (except for CPM D2) below as well
CPM S30V. This one is one of the best multi purpose blade steels. It heat treats nicely and it is easy to get RC60. It lends itself to production blades and custom makers. Corrosion resistance is good or better than say 440C. Toughness even at 60 is adequate for a very fine edge. My favorite application for 30v is fillet knives and some kitchen knives. It also makes a great EDC. Keep in mind that Crucible makes tool steels for the plastics industry, dies, feed screws, ect. On S30V they realized the potential for knife blades and asked some of the makers what we wanted in a good all around steel and worked on something with that in mind. Like all the CPM's good heat treating is essential and there have been some learning curves to get it all balanced. I works fine at RC 58 but has the full potential nearer 60.
CPM 154. The same chemistry as the 154CM but the change to the CPM structure made a noticeable difference. Finer structure allows higher hardness and better performance. I can push this one to 63 easy and with 154Cm the limit is about 61. This steel and S30v work about the same. I like it a little better for hunters due to the improved hardness. Makes a great fillet and kitchen knife as well. To get the higher hardness takes a temper at 975 but I have not seen any degradation in either toughness or corrosion resistance due to this temper cycle. It may show up in the lab but so far no problems in the field use. A good all around steel, pretty friendly to work and makes an excellent blade.

CPM D2 This one was more of an interesting experiment for Crucible. ( I speak for me not them). The improvement over the D2 grade is mostly in the structure. The finer grain allows a higher hardness and better toughness. I made 4 knives with this one so probably not a fair appraisal but got as good or better results with CPM 145 so decided to focus on that grade.

CPM 10V This one is not stainless but has great attainable hardness and adequate toughness even at 63/64. The 10% vanadium combined with the hardness make it the edge holding champ. This is the steel I compare all others against for overall performance. The best application is for a hunter where edge holding is more important than corrosion resistance.

CPM S110V. Introduced as an upgrade for S90V. This steel has the most potential of all so far for a great knife blade. Take a look at the chemistry. Vanadium, Niobium, Moly, Chrome, Colbalt and a whole lot of carbon. I just started working with this one and with the right heat treat it is in the same categrory as 10v for edge holding. I have pushed it up to 64 and seems to have adequate toughness for a very thin grind edge. Crucible shows outstanding corrosion resistance on their data sheet. As the steel sees more use in the field.--and more feedback is available I think this one will stand out. Availabilty is limited and it is a challange to work with -- grind and polish and drill and mill and saw cut are tough, but I think overall it will stand out and be worth the extra effort. We have to thank Kershaw for putting this one into use.

This is all my take and others will have different results and opinions I'm sure but FWIIW..

One more thing. I see a lot of discussion on edge chipping with various steels. On these high alloy steels at high hardness they were developed for the plastics industry where wear resistance and corrosion resistance are the most important. Also many are grinding and sharpening to a very fine edge. Even though these steels are very strong it is easy to exceed the stress level since the material backing up the edge is very small. Stress equals force divided by the area. Big force and small area equals failure. This is especially true if side loads and dynamic loads are applied The CPM steels have to be done at a pretty high hardness RC 57 plus--hardness equals strength-- to prevent the edge from rolling. The fine edge has to stand up there in order for the wear resistance provided by the carbides to come into play. Many of us would rather have fine edge chipping rather than rolling as the failure mode. If you get fine chipping the edge keeps cutting. If you roll it will continue to fatigue and eventually break anyhhow. If this happens you are back to the sharpening stone. Just a little design philosophy.. Phil


Thanks for the great info, Phil. That is what I call an informative, comprehensive review of the CPM steels. I would love to try some S110V at 64 RC. Have you Rockwell tested any of the Kershaw Shallots in S110V? I highly doubt they could bring a production piece up near 64 RC, I'm just curious how hard they were able to get it. With it's chemistry even around 60 RC it should be pretty impressive as far as edge retention.

Mike
 
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