Crushed W's question.

[jdm61]

I was curious as to what, if any unique pattern you can get if you make a crushed W billet and don't twist, tile or accordion cut it but treat it like a regular straight layer billet?

 

[deker]

It's kind of boring really. The Ws are in the end of the billet. It looks like a not very active random pattern from the side.

-d

 

[A C Richards]

Though not really an accordion, you can ladder it and it gives an interesting look. I have seen others do it but not tried it myself. I will be laddering a couple of billets on Monday. Just finished up a set of ladder pattern dies.

 

[jdm61]

Was afraid of that.

 

[jdm61]

I have some lader dies that I have not used yet, but I wonder if milling the grooves in might work better with W'sas you would actually be cutting across the "end" patternmore?

Though not really an accordion, you can ladder it and it gives an interesting look. I have seen others do it but not tried it myself. I will be laddering a couple of billets on Monday. Just finished up a set of ladder pattern dies.

My problem is that I don't think that I can twist a bar much bigger than one that would make a hunter sized blade.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

If you mill in the grooves in a ladder, you are effectively making an accordion fold.

 

[tryppyr]

Twist it... twist it until your arms fall off, then get your wife to twist it some more. Pound it... pound it until your hammer breaks, then borrow your wife's hammer and pound it some more.

I say all this because I don't have to do the work, and I so enjoy a good damascus.

 

[NickWheeler]

Laddered W's is an awesome pattern!!! IMHO, milling the grooves is not going to improve anything over properly pressed in rungs...but is going to take a hell of a lot longer.

W's that are tiled, flipped, and re-forge welded makes a very pretty pattern.

Twisting W's doesn't do much... it will look really crazy on the ends of the billet... but on the sides it will basically look like a coarse layer twist billet. It has a slightly different look than a regular twist, but not a lot. Of course if you leave a lot of material to grind into, that will help, or if you cut the center of the twisted billet out it will be really cool.

I'd recommend you either tile them, or press the ladders in.

 

[jdm61]

Nick, when you cut way into a tightly twisted W billet, don't you get firestorm?

Laddered W's is an awesome pattern!!! IMHO, milling the grooves is not going to improve anything over properly pressed in rungs...but is going to take a hell of a lot longer.

W's that are tiled, flipped, and re-forge welded makes a very pretty pattern.

Twisting W's doesn't do much... it will look really crazy on the ends of the billet... but on the sides it will basically look like a coarse layer twist billet. It has a slightly different look than a regular twist, but not a lot. Of course if you leave a lot of material to grind into, that will help, or if you cut the center of the twisted billet out it will be really cool.

I'd recommend you either tile them, or press the ladders in.

 

[Dan Seaver]

Joe,

Twisted crushed w's do make firestorm and you can also make explosion pattern from a bar of firestorm. Both are very active and beautiful patterns when made correctly. You also have the option of raindrop pattern in crushed w's.

If you have a pipe vice and a large pipe wrench with a second handle welded on you should be able to twist up to 3/4" no problem. If you find your having trouble twisting your billet you can send it up my way and I'll toss it in my twisting machine and twist it for you.

 

[jdm61]

Thanks, Dan. No pipe vice, but I do have a hydraulic press. I may take you up on that offer at some point because 3/4 inch bar really doesn't work well for the size knives I make sometimes. Do you have one of those converted pipe threaders to do your twisting?

Joe,

Twisted crushed w's do make firestorm and you can also make explosion pattern from a bar of firestorm. Both are very active and beautiful patterns when made correctly. You also have the option of raindrop pattern in crushed w's.

If you have a pipe vice and a large pipe wrench with a second handle welded on you should be able to twist up to 3/4" no problem. If you find your having trouble twisting your billet you can send it up my way and I'll toss it in my twisting machine and twist it for you.

 

[A C Richards]

Yup twisting up to 1" is not too difficult with a good pipe wrench with handle. I made up a twisting jig that makes 1" twist really easy. Used a design I got from JD Smith.

It took 500lbs of force (Mike and I) to twist a 2" billet. If you are interested I can take a few shots of the jig. Takes some lathe work but it is pretty simple.

 

[Dan Seaver]

Joe,

Yea its a ridgid 300 that I converted. It used to take me a day of hard work to twist up 5 billets but with this puppy I do it in an hour without breaking a sweat.

I wouldn't suggest it for the average knife maker but if you need big billets or a lot of damascus it is a wonderful tool.

 

[Bill Burke]

When you cut way into a tightly twisted W billet, don't you get firestorm?

Yes, Joe that is how you get Firestorm. Twist the billet say one inch (or any size you want) flaten and draw it out to a half inch or 3/4, then grind a third off of each side or cut the center out of it.

 

[jdm61]

Thats what I thought. I would think that the inside face of the
wasted" outer layers might make someone some nice bolsters or such.

Yes, Joe that is how you get Firestorm. Twist the billet say one inch (or any size you want) flaten and draw it out to a half inch or 3/4, then grind a third off of each side or cut the center out of it.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

These are just grooves cut in with an angle grinder:

 

[12345678910]

Yup twisting up to 1" is not too difficult with a good pipe wrench with handle.
I made up a twisting jig that makes 1" twist really easy.
Used a design I got from JD Smith.
It took 500lbs of force (Mike and I) to twist a 2" billet.
If you are interested I can take a few shots of the jig.
Takes some lathe work but it is pretty simple.

I'd like to see more pics

I can picture that the bearing may be just a grooved sleeve with set screws inthe groove,

but how is the billet secured into both the live and dead ends ?

 

[12345678910]

Joe,

Yea its a ridgid 300 that I converted. It used to take me a day of hard work to twist up 5 billets but with this puppy I do it in an hour without breaking a sweat.

I wouldn't suggest it for the average knife maker but if you need big billets or a lot of damascus it is a wonderful tool.

What did you have to do to convert it?

I checked the specs as 1/2 hp and 38 rpm
Is it still that way and is there anything else you would have done to it knowing what you know now?

 

[Dan Seaver]

What did you have to do to convert it?

I checked the specs as 1/2 hp and 38 rpm
Is it still that way and is there anything else you would have done to it knowing what you know now?

Converting was pretty simple. I replaced the arms and added a sliding bar to the arms. On the sliding bar I have a pipe vice that is adjusted by adding or removing plates under it and then bolting it down. This keeps the bar stock centered while twisting regardless of the diameter. I still have it set up at 1/2hp and 38rpm.

To be honest unless you set it up correctly it will be an expensive hassle. I have mine set up so I can get the bar from the forge and twisting faster than just the time it used to take me to get the bar from the forge and clamped in my post vice. The key to this was the special pipe vice, its hinged on one side which makes getting the bar in place as easy a pie.

Honestly there isn't anything I would do differently. The machine has its limits and once I hit them I will build a bigger twister for really big bars of damascus. I don't know what the maximum size it will twist is but it twists 1.25" without issue.

I'm not real good at describing what I did to convert it so I'll just post some pictures tomorrow.

 

[Dan Seaver]