Cryogenic Tempering of BAS

Joined
Apr 6, 2001
Messages
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Would it do anything???

I have the handle off already...it is 5160...I got a hell of a deal from Uncle on it so if it is ruined I wont cry.

Should I go for it?? :confused:

A cryogenicly tempered Durba BAS...with a pink handle...hmmmm:cool:
 
If you are thinkng of Paul Bos, be sure you talk to him first, so he knows the details - forged truck spring steel (European, probably Mercedes, differentially hardened by the kami). Bos knows his steels as well or better than anyone in the blade business. He will know that our steel is a European equivalent of 5160 (there are several varieties) and can then adjust his treatment so that the sweet spot doesn't crack out because the temp went too low. This is assuming he will agree to treat a pre-hardened blade. It gets mighty, mighty cold in that little chamber.
 
Geez...I thought they just dipped the knives in some liquid nitrogen and let them sit for a few days. I was surfing and it seemed like a good idea for a kuk.

How would I contact Mr. Paul Bos?
 
might be possible through a post on the shop talk forum. A piece I once read said that he does cryo treatment for one of the manufacturers (his day job) and also takes blades from individual makers. I have no idea what the cost may be, or what backlog he has. I didn't finish the article (mag went out in the dumpster ahead of schedule :( ) but the process is a series of controlled temperature drops (using liquid nitrogen) which re-aligns the grain structure and creates a stronger, more uniform pattern throughout the piece. That is why I wonder about a forged blade - the structure might be so diverse due to differential hardening, packing, etc., that the stresses of the temp drops might be damaging. OTOH, if there is a way to do it gradually, and not exceed limits, it might enhance everything already present in the blade. IIRC, the blades mentioned in the article were finished, ground pieces.
 
Bos isn't the only one who does this...guys who advertise all the time in American Rifleman and some of the flossier gun magazines also do it...cost runs about $30-$50, with the higher price for whole rifle barrelled actions.
The jury is still out on whether there is any *significant* practical improvement from cryogenic treatment.
My O: carry coals to newcastle or chocolate to Hershey, PA if you want...it's your buck. Me, I'm a slave to tradition, and the steady educated hand of a kami, pouring cool water from his little tea kettle...
:cool:
Ken
 
Dave I have wondered about this myself quite frequently. I think, hell, believe it would be worth a $150.00 bucks to have it checked out.
It will be about a month before I could contribute, but I will put $30.00 up for you if you wanna and are willing to try it no matter how it turns out. And to have you test the blade for enhanced edge holding and ease of sharpening among other things.
And if this is something you could wait on another month I will kick in another $30.00 bucks. That may even pay for it?

It's not the same, but I think, as has been mentioned "The jury is still out." some of the heat & beat guys are believers in a cold temp treatment involving dry ice and a high powered solvent, I think, I can't recall the name of right now.
It doesn't get as cold as the liquid nitrogen but does seem to have some benefits, seems like a few have even tried the cyro treatment?
And I'm pretty sure it has been done on differentially treated blades.
A question in the Shop Talk Forum will surely bring a few answers we may not be clear on if you wanna discuss it further we can take it to e-mail?:)
 
Hey, this is my first post in this forum. I was doing some late night lurking and saw this; maybe I can help.

I'm a newbie knifemaker. But over the last couple years I have been studying up on knifemaking a little bit. Based on my understanding, what Cryo treating does for a knife blade is help convert the leftover pearlite to martensite after the initial hardening process. Most quality air hardening steel knives are cryo treated because those steels benefit from the process. Low alloy carbon steels on the other hand, don't benefit any from cryo treatment due to the particular compostion/ alloy of the steel.

However, I remember reading on Ed Caffery's forum elsewhere that in his experience 5160 does benefit from cryo because of chromium in the steel. But if you are going to cryo treat a 5160 blade you would want to do it before the final tempering session. Cryo treating can harden a blade a RC point or two and you need to adjust the final temper to get the hardness you want.

Being that your khukuri is already hardened to where it needs to be, cryo treating it may make the edge harder, possibly making it nick and dent easier. So IMO, I would not mess with it. There's no reason to cryo treat it now. The only benefit from cryoing it during the initial manufacturing process would be possibly making the steel grain finer, the rewards at this point are nill.

To sum up, you have a good khukuri, there's no reason to have it cryo'ed at this point. But that's just my opinion and i'm certainly far from knowledgeable on the subject.

Regards,
David
 
It is a craps shoot...winner takes or loses it all.

Like most of my plans I am still thinking about it.

Drummer, WELCOME!!! :D
 
Cryogenics can benefit many steels mainly because the transformation temperatures from austenite to martensite is well below room temperature. Just think about it. Why would you expect the crystal structure of steel to be controlled by the temperature that we find comfortable.

Cryo treatment does many things for a blade steel including, but not limited to, greater austenite to martensite transformation, finer grain size, and improved carbide structure. This has been studied in great detail and you can find controlled testing done in various journals.

The problem with such testing is that it is often done by the people selling the equipment. It would be like going to a used car salesman and asking him his opinion of his products as compared to those competing against him. Everyone you ask always has the best cars.

In competition to cryo is the traditional multi-temper approach, that can also increase the martensite transformation percentage and refine the grain structure. No work has been done to my knowledge to show that it can generate the same level of carbide optomization and thus wear resistance.

Anyway, deep cryo is just a continuation of the quench part of the heat treatment, the blade *has* to be tempered afterwards otherwise you are working with untempered martensite which is extremely brittle (~66 or so RC). As well realize that on many blades, (the HI khukuris being one such type) not all of the blade is quenched in the first place.

For large chopping class blades, I would not think any significant advantage is going to be obtained from cryo added to the standard heat treatment because (a) you can already get the hardness you desire without cryo, and (b) wear resistance plays little role in chopping and other heavy work. It would be interesting to see if it has any effect on the karda.

If you are interested I could take the karda from one of my larger khukuris, do some edge retention work on it, do a deep dryo and temper (in a regular oven), and repeat the edge retention work to see if a difference was made. I would think little actually because if the austenite at room temperature tends to stabilize and resist transformation which is one of the reasons that you don't leave blades around untempered.

Finally, if you just jammed a khukuri, especially one of the larger ones into liquid nitrogen, it might experience enough thermal shock to cause micro-cracking. Phil Wilson has looked at this in detail and found no evidence for his blades, but they are 1/8" thick at max with full flat grinds and distal tapers, thus the surface area to volume ratio (and thus heat transfer) is high, on a 22" Ang Khola this is not going to be the case.

-Cliff
 
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