Crystolon + India = Wayne Goddard ... What would you buy?

[J Thomas]

.

Tonight I was reading "The Wonder of Knifemaking: Edition 2" by Wayne Goddard and in the sharpening section it appears he likes using a Medium Crystolon and Fine India stone to finish the knives he forges.

I would like to expand my sharpening stone experience so I checked out the Sharpening Supplies website. They have individual Crystolon and Indian stones in the following sizes:

Crystolon

8" x 2 x 1" thick ... Coarse - 122 micron, Medium - 76 micron, Fine - 44.5 micron

8" x 3 x 1/2" thick ... Coarse, Medium, Fine

11-1/2" x 2-1/2 x 1/2" thick ... Coarse, Medium (no Fine)


India

8" x 2 x 1" thick ... Coarse - 102 micron, Medium - 53 micron, Fine - 35 micron

8" x 3 x 1/2" thick ... Coarse, Medium, Fine

11-1/2" x 2-1/2 x 1/2" thick ... Medium, Fine (no Coarse)


Some of the stones are 1/2" thick and others are 1" thick, twice the thickness ... does this matter (I don't believe these are stones that wear too quickly)?

Would you get 6 stones if you could, just to experiment or would you select only certain grits, does thickness make a difference? The 11-1/2" long stones look interesting, anyone have any experience with stones this long ... pros/cons?

Thanks for you insights or thoughts.

All the best.

(Micron sizes noted above are from Ron Hock's book, "The Perfect Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening For Woodworkers."

.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi,

.
Tonight I was reading "The Wonder of Knifemaking: Edition 2" by Wayne Goddard and in the sharpening section it appears he likes using a Coarse Crystolon and Fine India stone to finish the knives he forges.

Does he sharpen on beltsander and removes burr on the india ?

.If you all ready had the DMT stones, would you venture out to some Crystolon and India stones? Is there a difference in the edge they make, or maybe it is worth the journey to learn/experience other stones?

Hi,
for knife sharpening,
if I already had DMT stones, I wouldn't go with India,
They're both hard stones that don't shed grit,
diamond demand low force (under 1lb ) or it gets damaged,
but it works well at that low force, and wears very very very very very slowly
India can take high force but also needs high force to cut fast, but it also wears ...
India like DMT doesnt make mud, so the finish would same for same grit rating,
until the india loads/wears, and then you get finer finish (burnishing) but edge retention suffers (burnishing)
so you need loose grit silicon carbide to flatten/recondition india ... which could be used on cheaper stone
7 pages here India Stone - coarse

Now the crystolon can shed grit / make mud easier, that makes the finish slightly finer,
and makes maintenance easier , it provides its own loose grit for flattening/lapping/resurfacing/deglazing
a finished review at norton economy review,

Some of the stones are 1/2" thick and others are 1" thick, twice the thickness ... does this matter (I don't believe these are stones that wear too quickly)? I've never read about anyone using a Crystolon grit other than Coarse ... are Medium and Fine worth owning? Also, same for India, never read about anyone using a India grit except Fine, but they also have India Coarse and Medium.

India stones wear extremely slow, as in 40 years later, still almost an inch of stone left
only 4 pages here India Stone - fine

Even the crystolon wear relatively slow

Would you get 6 stones if you could, just to experiment or would you select only certain grits, does thickness make a difference? The 11-1/2" long stones look interesting, anyone have any experience with stones this long ... pros/cons?

Cut a piece of cardboard to length,
grab a ruler and pretend its a knife of different lengths,
and try "sharpening" to see how it feels

the bigger the stone, the harder it is to hold
the less passes you have to do, but they're longer passes
might feel nice or clumsy
would be fast on huge blades,
but its still hand sharpening,
and a cheap beltsander/beltgrind would be even faster and close enough in price


I see no use for the the medium stone
or for buying a fine stone seperately
crystolon is easier to maintain than india

so the candidates are
crystolon coarse if you got something in 300-400 grit already like the diamond
or crystolon combo (coarse/fine)

I got norton economy combo a year ago when home depot still carried it, but like the review says, they can vary in behaviour ... but its all good IMHO

 

[HeavyHanded]

.

Tonight I was reading "The Wonder of Knifemaking: Edition 2" by Wayne Goddard and in the sharpening section it appears he likes using a Medium Crystolon and Fine India stone to finish the knives he forges.

I would like to expand my sharpening stone experience so I checked out the Sharpening Supplies website. They have individual Crystolon and Indian stones in the following sizes:

Crystolon

8" x 2 x 1" thick ... Coarse - 122 micron, Medium - 76 micron, Fine - 44.5 micron

8" x 3 x 1/2" thick ... Coarse, Medium, Fine

11-1/2" x 2-1/2 x 1/2" thick ... Coarse, Medium (no Fine)


India

8" x 2 x 1" thick ... Coarse - 102 micron, Medium - 53 micron, Fine - 35 micron

8" x 3 x 1/2" thick ... Coarse, Medium, Fine

11-1/2" x 2-1/2 x 1/2" thick ... Medium, Fine (no Coarse)


Some of the stones are 1/2" thick and others are 1" thick, twice the thickness ... does this matter (I don't believe these are stones that wear too quickly)?

Would you get 6 stones if you could, just to experiment or would you select only certain grits, does thickness make a difference? The 11-1/2" long stones look interesting, anyone have any experience with stones this long ... pros/cons?

Thanks for you insights or thoughts.

All the best.

(Micron sizes noted above are from Ron Hock's book, "The Perfect Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening For Woodworkers."

.

Norton makes an IC11 combination stone that is medium Crystalon/fine India. I only find it in 11" size so is not the cheapest, but cheaper than buying both separately. It can sometimes be found for a more competitive price from outfits that sell speedskates as it is popular for sharpening them. I used to not be troubled by working on small stones and still do not mind, but for bench work the bigger the better, especially for working on woodworking tools.


The medium Crystalon is a good stone for rapid cleanup of beat edges without making the deeper scratches the coarse Crystalon or India might - it can do what the coarse side of most combination stones are intended to do. It wears and needs flattening after a lot of use, but added thickness is not really an issue. It is not a good stone for heavier grinding, but then most coarse stones aren't the best for that either - heavy stock removal is best done with powered means.

The India makes a great EDU finisher edge and also a good level of refinement followed by an additional step with a finer abrasive, burnishing rod or compound. It follows the medium Crystalon nicely and is nicely followed by stones in the range of a fine Spyderco ceramic, soft Arkansas. Because it is aluminum oxide it slows down a bit on higher Vanadium content steels, but at that grit level it can still sharpen them well, especially if the edge is properly set up on the medium first.

You can't go wrong with these stones, most folk will eventually own one combination SiC stone and/or one combination India stone no matter what else they have. Use these stones with oil and a light touch they will stay 'like new' with hardly any discoloration from embedded swarf. I have found using them with water (especially the India) will result in the surface slowly glazing and needing periodic conditioning by lapping with loose grit.

 

[scott.livesey]

I own a bunch of Crystolon stones and am very happy with results. 4 are 2x6x1 coarse/fine, 2 are 2x6x1 coarse Crys/fine India, a medium 2x6x1/2, a 8x2x1 coarse/fine, a 10 x 1-1/4 x 3/4 medium and two 10 x 1-1/4 x 3/4 coarse fine. the last three have handles so you also use them as a file. i use light mineral oil. every 4 or 5 months, the ones used most often get cleaned/flattened using 40 grit silicon carbide powder and oil on either steel lapping plate or piece of glass, clean with mineral spirits then something like simply green. I am saving my pennies for a JUM3, 11x2 1/2x1. I do like a longer stone for long blades. I have a JewelStik 12x3 1200 grit diamond that i use for final and touch up.
I ended up with so many stones because folks at the office would order them, use them for one maintenance shutdown(these stones work great for lapping motor/gearbox faces), then pitch em in the trash.
I would check eBay, should be able to find a 8x2x1 coarse/fine Crystolon or India for around $30
scott

 

[jpm2]

I've had the 8" x 2 x 1" coarse/fine JB8 Crystolons forever. It's seen a lot of use and the coarse side is my work horse for fast heavy grinding when reprofiling or reseting edges and bevels. All the knives I've sharpened (hundreds)have seen this stone.
The fine side is mainly for reducing the coarse scratches, and usually go from there to an Eze-Lap fine (600grit/~15micron?).
Most of the time this is the stopping point for my carry/work knives, but refine more for special use ones(kitchen/whittlers/surgery/etc.)
I keep them oiled, but usually not wet for smaller jobs. For bigger ones, I'll keep them slightly wet with mineral oil while in use. This significantly slows, or eliminates clogging/glazing, and makes clean up easier.
The 11-1/2" x 2-1/2 x 1/2" ones look really nice and useful, and don't think thickness would be an issue. I might get some one day.
I don't have the india (aluminum oxide) version, but have used them. Since I always progress to the fine diamond, I really have no use for it and prefer the faster cutting SiC. However if you wanted to stop there, it should give a more refined edge, and would make a good combo 1 stone option.

 

[J Thomas]

.

bucketstove - Whoa! So much great information you shared and linked to, Thank You for going above and beyond helping me with my decision.

HeavyHanded - Thank You for the experienced insights. You do a lot for so many on this Forum, it is much appreciated.

scott.livesey - Man! I want a job where folks throw away sharpening stones. =) You gave me some solid things to think on.

jpm2 - Great information, you helped me decide on a combination Crystylon in the 11-1/2" x 2-1/2 x 1/2" size. Now just have to save up a bit. Nice of you to share your insights.

Everyone, Thanks. I'm looking forward to learning more about a Crystylon combination stone and hopefully save some wear/tear on my Shapton Glass and DMT's.

All the best, JT

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Diamond vs. aluminum oxide vs. silicon carbide do not produce the same finish at the same grit rating. Grit protrusion, abrasive grain shape, and bond strength all apply as significant variables between them.

Diamond can, and does, fracture over time and become finer than it was when new, even if used with a light touch. It is possible to wear out a diamond stone through regular sharpening even when well cared for. Because of the way they are bonded, diamond stones typically have very high grit protrusion and so tend to be the most aggressive cutting stone for a given abrasive grain size.

Silicon carbide has very hard, sharp crystals, but they're also the most prone to fracture, and so they tend to be best used with softer bonds so that the substrate wears at equal rate with the abrasive particles.

Aluminum oxide still has very sharp crystals, but less aggressive and tougher than silicon carbide, and tends to produce a finer edge with a somewhat slower cut rate.

In both silicon carbide and aluminum oxide stones, the binder affects not just the wear rate of the stone, but the grit protrusion as well. The more protrusion, the more aggressive it is for a given grit size, and the coarser a finish/edge is produced.

Most abrasive grit manufactures use "simulated" grits for anything over about 280, as a real physical mesh becomes impractical as a means of separating and grading the particles at that point. They start having to use things like the different weights of the particles with controlled blower mechanisms and crazy stuff like that to get the finer grits sorted.

 

[David Martin]

Agreed ^. I use the India and SiC then shy away from diamond stones. As they lack economy and cut only slightly faster. The fine India and fine crystolon put on a different edge. The coarse grits on both wear or slough off quicker than the finer. I have no trouble sharpening a 8" blade on a Norton IB8 India stone. Which is at the upper end of what may be encountered. My JUM-3 SiC stone has needed leveling 2-3 times over the last 10 years. Whereas my IB8 has needed leveling once over the last 20 years and I sharpen 4-5 blades a week. So, the SiC stones have different binders than a India and it's grit works different, cutting faster, leaving a different edge. A combination stone in these materials are a work horse stone. I could live without my diamond stones but not these. DM

 

[jhalb]

The 11-1/2 X 2-1/2 X 1/2 stones I believe were designed as replacement stones for the Norton IM-313 Tri-Stone oil system. I just bought a used one with worn stones off that auction site for 65 shipped. New ones are 299. Comes with Coarse and medium Crystolon stones and an India Fine stone. The IM-313 system is usually found in American restaurant kitchens where there is at least one chef on duty. I was a cook growing up and places like Carrows and CoCo's never had a decent sharpener in the kitchen, but when I got a job at the Peppermill, there was one chef always on duty and that is when we talked about these type sharpeners.

 

[David Martin]

Yes, the IM313 are usually found in meat markets as well. I really like using mine. A great sharpening system. DM