CS VG1 vs. CS Carbon V

Personally, I think Carbon V is the better steel for this knife, based upon edge retention and toughness. If you are concerned about corrosion, then you might think differently. I live in a very dry climate where corrosion doesn't even enter my mind.
 
VG-1 is a low grade of stainless steel and Carbon V is a good high carbon steel, 0170-6. It helps to understand the different kinds of steels and their characteristics, which is a complicated learning process taken bit by bit. There are sources to help, for example, Joe Talmadge's Steel FAQ http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828

(This doesn't even mention VG-1. There really are so many variants of the basic steels, they won't all be covered.)
 
sodak said:
Personally, I think Carbon V is the better steel for this knife, based upon edge retention and toughness.
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Have you used their VG-1? The biggest deciding factor here aside from the corrosion resistance is likely frequency of sharpening. If you keep your knives very sharp then the higher carbide steels like VG-1 (which has a massively higher carbide fraction than Carbon V) don't offer much of an advantage because the large carbides don't enhance that ability at all, they in fact reduce it.

Esav Benyamin said:
VG-1 is a low grade of stainless steel ...
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VG-1 lies very close to the critical tie line for C/Cr stainless steels, which is a very nice place for stainless steels to fall because it allows them to obtain a high hardness and corrosion resistance. It is far to the right of the carbon saturation line and thus has a higher primary carbide fraction than steels like AEB-L so it has a lower edge stability but higher wear resistance.

-Cliff
 
First off, thanks to all for your input. I'm a knife neophyte;pistols are my area of expertise.

Be patient with me here; if I understand what has been said correctly, if I want good corrosion resistance, go with Carbon V, if I want some corrosion resistance but greater blade toughness, go with VG-1.

I will get corrosion resistance with both steels, but the Carbon V is better, the VG-1 provides a stronger blade.

That about it?

Thanks for your patience...

Andy Colglazier

Reading more deeply into the responses, maybe I have that just backwards.....?
 
The corrosion resistance of Carbon V is very low and in comparison VG-1 would be extremely high. The main difference you are likely to note in use is that the Carbon V knife will be easier to sharpen for a few reasons and will generally be more forgiving to harder cutting.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The corrosion resistance of Carbon V is very low and in comparison VG-1 would be extremely high. The main difference you are likely to note in use is that the Carbon V knife will be easier to sharpen for a few reasons and will generally be more forgiving to harder cutting.

-Cliff
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Ah-ha. So I did have it pretty much backwards. Thanks very much!

Andy
 
Carbon V is not stainless, but note that the VG-1 is not straight, but in a VG-1 San Mai III configuration -- it's sandwiched. You may want to read the CS FAQ on Carbon V and San Mai III. If corrosion is not an issue go with Carbon V, otherwise try the VG-1 San Mai III blade. $.02
 
ras said:
Carbon V is not stainless, but note that the VG-1 is not straight, but in a VG-1 San Mai III configuration -- it's sandwiched. You may want to read the CS FAQ on Carbon V and San Mai III. If corrosion is not an issue go with Carbon V, otherwise try the VG-1 San Mai III blade. $.02
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ras, great pointing that out - in fact, here's the definition from the Cold Steel site you linked to:

>Q: What is San Mai III®?
San Mai means &#8220;three layers&#8221;. It is the term given to the traditional laminated blades used by the Japanese for swords and daggers. Laminated construction is important because it allows different grades of stainless steel to be combined in a single blade. This allows the bladesmith to make a blade that more exactly matches the performance characteristics he needs. A simple way to think of this type of construction is to imagine a sandwich: The meat center is hard, high carbon steel and the pieces of bread on either side are the lower-carbon, tough side panels. Generally the edge of the blade should be hard to maximize edge holding ability, but if the entire blade was hard it could be damaged during the rigors of battle. For ultimate toughness the body of the blade must be able to withstand impact and lateral stresses. Toughness is generally associated with &#8220;softness&#8221; and &#8220;flexibility&#8221; in steel, so that surprisingly, if an entire blade was made &#8220;tough&#8221; the edge would not be hard enough to offer superior edge holding. San Mai III® provides a superior blade with hard (higher carbon) steel in the middle for a keen, long lasting edge and tougher (lower-carbon) steel along the sides for flexibility.<

So with the knife in question, presumably the core will be Carbon V sandwiched between two layers of VG-1.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Have you used their VG-1? The biggest deciding factor here aside from the corrosion resistance is likely frequency of sharpening. If you keep your knives very sharp then the higher carbide steels like VG-1 (which has a massively higher carbide fraction than Carbon V) don't offer much of an advantage because the large carbides don't enhance that ability at all, they in fact reduce it.
-Cliff
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I got to borrow one in VG 1. It wasn't bad, in between AUS-8A and Carbon V, from what I could tell in edge holding while whittling wood and cutting cardboard. I was in a hurry when I made that post, I should have been more specific. Yes, after I can't push cut newsprint at 1 inch or so, I resharpen. I like your sharpness test!

It seemed to lose the initial sharpness quickly, but I don't know how the blunting "tail" looks...
 
sodak said:
I got to borrow one in VG 10. It wasn't bad, in between AUS-8A and Carbon V, from what I could tell in edge holding while whittling wood and cutting cardboard.
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That sounds about what I would expect. You could probably push it higher with a more suitable heat treatment, but then again Carbon V could be 66/67 HRC so it would blow past VG-1 in that regard when both were optomized.

...after I can't push cut newsprint at 1 inch or so, I resharpen.
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You really need some optimally hardened AEB-L, W1, M2, etc. .

I like your sharpness test!
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The newsprint push cutting I use was origionated by Alvin who does it a little differently. He folds a piece of the paper and presses into the unsupported fold. I just tear off a piece of paper and cut into it because it is faster. It is also easier to quantify because you can use the distance from the point of contact in the fingers as a measure of sharpness as Dog of War noted in the Toolshed forum. With Alvin's method you would have to vary the height of the fold which is very time consuming. Alvin however only has one rank sharp or not so that isn't a concern for him.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=424085

It seemed to lose the initial sharpness quickly, but I don't know how the blunting "tail" looks...
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I would expect it to be less than VG-10 as it has less carbide and high carbide steels do well in extended edge retention trials as the edge thickens enough to support the carbides and the rate of wear slows way down. VG-10 also promotes use of Cobalt to increase the carbides retention and it does actually solid solution strengthen ferrite. An extended comparison of the two would be interesting.

I assume the VG-10 was a typo in the above and you meant VG-1.

-Cliff
 
rifon2 said:
So with the knife in question, presumably the core will be Carbon V sandwiched between two layers of VG-1.
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In the past, CS had an AUS8 core between 420(soft) layers. I believe VG-1 San Mai is VG-1 between some 400 series steel. One wants a durable, flexible steel for the sandwiching.
 
Clint Simpson said:
In the past, CS had an AUS8 core between 420(soft) layers. I believe VG-1 San Mai is VG-1 between some 400 series steel. One wants a durable, flexible steel for the sandwiching.
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That's interesting. AUS 8 and 420 are, generally speaking, reasonably similar stainless steels. I would have thought they'd use steels more different than those for the core and the laminate.

But I am speculating here, based on the less than complete info on CS's site regarding the particular knife mentioned.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
You really need some optimally hardened AEB-L, W1, M2, etc. .
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Yes, I really need to get going on my M2 hacksaw blade. Too many other competing projects...

Cliff Stamp said:
I assume the VG-10 was a typo in the above and you meant VG-1.
-Cliff
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Yes, thanks for the catch.
 
I own a Master Hunter in Carbon V. I put it in with some stuff during hurricane season awhile back & haven't seen it lately. ...Its around here somewhere. Really it is :) LOL

Anyway, it is a fine blade but if you are concerned about keeping it pristine looking then you should go with the stainless. Mine took on a nifty patina after I used it to cut steak one night - didn't matter to me & I never had any rust issues taking normal care of the knife. But if you like a nice shiny finish & for it to stay that way, you should go with the stainless...

Not to change the subject but the Blackjack Grunt in AUS8A is a better knife IMO. Better ergos, superior factory edge, wider blade - a little larger to be sure but a better all around knife IMO.
 
rifon2 said:
That's interesting. AUS 8 and 420 are, generally speaking, reasonably similar stainless steels. I would have thought they'd use steels more different than those for the core and the laminate.

But I am speculating here, based on the less than complete info on CS's site regarding the particular knife mentioned.
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The main difference is in the carbon content. AUS-8 can reach 60 Rc, while 420 cannot. When laminated, you can have one at 58-60 Rc, and one at 52-55 Rc. I don't know if they use a layer of nickel or similar to prevent carbon migration or not.
 
rifon2 said:
That's interesting. AUS 8 and 420 are, generally speaking, reasonably similar stainless steels.
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Both of these are often grouped as the "tougher" stainless steels, however AUS-8A gets this mainly as how it is heat treated. With proper hardening it can put about 0.50-0.55% carbon into solution and thus can give an maximum hardness of 61/62 after tempering whereas 420J2 will only give 52/54. The carbide fraction is also much greater with AUS-8A so the wear resistance is much higher. 420J2 is also much more corrosion resistant and tougher.

-Cliff
 
carrosion resistance? All you have to do is take alittle care of your knife. Wipe it down once in awhile. I have lots of 1050 and 0170-6 blades, and I live on the ocean!!! No rust at all. Just wipe them down once in awhile and keep them lubed. These steels are WAY WAY TOUGHER!!!!! Just keep them lubed and clean and you'll be fine.
 
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