cultural jet lag

Rusty

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Maybe this time I'll get it straight: Pala and Lhakpa's relationship puts my western mind on tilt.

One of the things many in the west have gladly seized on is the opportunity to cut family ties. To move out and away when they marry, so the in-laws can't meddle. Freedom from interference, and in many cases, past parental relationships that were exploitive.

Now I hear Pala in effect saying, "take care of your own first", when we in the west don't even know who we are, let alone who else is our own.

It boggles my mind to think of a person raised to be a gentle caring loving family member grounded in right and wrong, setting foot alone in NYC where they have the reputation for being some of the rudest people anywhere. Especially one with fighting skills.

Could you elucidate a bit more Uncle Bill, Pala, Sonam and others on Asian vs American differences in relationships, familial and otherwise?
 
Rusty, the major difference between the US and Nepal is there are no (or very minimal at best) social services in Nepal. Unlike here where the government has replaced the family in times of need, in Nepal it is up to family and friends to take up the slack when somebody falls on hard times.

But think about it? If my brother were to die and leave his son without a father I would certainly try to fill some of that void. I think you and most of us here would do the same. I do not find it that unusual.

When Yangdu and I had an apartment in Swayambu we took in a Tamang orphan, a boy of perhaps 12. I like to think that my small effort and guidance was in some small way responsible for the fine and successful young man he is today.

I know I "went native" in Nepal. Maybe I still am.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
http://members.aol.com/himimp/index.html
 
You know me, Uncle Bill. Abuse, neglect, exploitation, addictions, et. al., was my line of work.

So when I hear of family, custom, and tradition being so important, I automatically start looking for ways they can be misused. On second thought, include religion in there too. Because people are people and some of them are going to use whatever it takes to make them feel good, or at least better ( morally ) than the neighbors down the street.

Mostly, though, when I ask about differences in relationships, it's to satisfy curiosity and just maybe find some teaching or style of living I can Rube Goldberg into something that'll do for me for now. As Ghost said, you can't know your own culture without knowing another.

As Pogo used to say, "We have met the enemy and it is us". The Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims are not a threat to me. Their numbers over here are fairly miniscule. My fellow "Christians" live next door, however, and I ain't turnin' my back on 'em fur a split second. Even with a loaded riot gun in my hands.( Almost forgot the obligatory knife reference ) and a matched pair of 20" Sirupatis on my belt.


[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 25 September 1999).]
 
Rusty,
Most of the rest of the world is like Nepal.
Social services are really almost nonexistant.
Dan
 
As Bill is aware, I was raised in a very religious family. The exact type isn't important, let's just say "very hardcore Christian".

In studying the Old Testament of the Bible's section where the Jews were given an entire legal code (law of Moses), there's *major* importance given to keeping families in one intact financial and social structure. Seen in that light, the extreme prohibitions on adultery and homosexuality starts to make sense for that environment. Even punishment of murderers was primarily to be handled by the victim's family. Every 50 years all property sales get "reset" to ownership of the original family; ditto for what is poorly translated "slavery" but was really closer to "indentured servant" or in some cases "employee". Inheritence laws putting emphasis on the "firstborn" may seem non-egalitarian by our standards but again, it made for a single solid financial structure which presumably could insure the viability of the whole family, including those sick/injured/widowed/whatever.

My familiarity with this stuff allows me to see these Nepalese customs we're running into in the same light. It makes perfect sense. Native Americans universally did the same thing.

In the US, welfare codes often had the horrific side effect of penalizing intact family structures and/or their formation. That's starting to get cleaned up now, the days when a woman on welfare immediately lost all benefits by having any contact with a male are fading if not totally gone.

I feel that laws should allow groups of people to form "virtual extended families", perhaps based on things other than blood ties. I personally have no problems even allowing gays to do that. The truth is, even two working adults are NOT enough to form solid "backup" in case of accident, injury, illness or whatever. You need four or MORE working adults, minimum to cover their elders and kids in case one or two experience "downtime", the group can still function well enough. Or maintain a ratio of one worker to one child, ill or elderly non-worker...you can't get that ratio with "nuclear families" so in the US we have welfare, social security, unemployment insurance and lots more...it's NOT adequate.

Another comment on Nepalese customs: the idea of special terms of respect for those of greater years isn't anything horrible. It's a bit strange to Western ears but it's at least fair: wait long enough, you WILL get old
biggrin.gif
. The Japanese variant is different: terms of respect built into the language are based on "social and political rank" and are so deep into the language that no two males can really talk to each other without sorting out "who is superior, who is inferior". Japan's political system was pure Feudalism until VERY recently, and it shows. In Japanese business etiquette they have developed a "business card exchange ceremony", because by examining the cards they can sort out relative rank. A small business owner would be outranked by most Mitsubishi managers, for example.

To most Americans, this sort of rigid structure is just...nauseating, at least to the degree the Japanese take it. Ghostsix rankled a bit at the Nepalese version but I don't find it horrible like the Japanese system...which I know Ghostsix is also familiar with.

In US terms, respect comes pretty much entirely through one's actions, accomplishments, morals and ideas. Pala, I'm a product of my culture; I respect you greatly but it comes from my respect of your accomplishments as a soldier, businessman, helper of others, etc. I would feel pretty much exactly the same if you were even younger than me (35).

Jim March
 
Actually, Jim, 65 years ago when I was a boy things were still pretty much the same here as they are in Nepal today. When my Dad lost his job, he and Mom and me lived with my Cherokee Grandmother and grandpa for almost two years until Dad finally got a job working on the WPA for $30 per month.

There were no social services available to take up the slack so it was up to family and friends to do so.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
http://members.aol.com/himimp/index.html
 
And when my mom's family got run out of West Virginia by the Klan for being foreigners ( Hungarian ) and got set up in California, another neighbor family in Hungary moved over and stayed with my family. One of their sons married one of my aunts. Eighty years ago, if your neigbors couldn't depend on you in a crunch, who were you going to depend on when you got into trouble?

Today it's the what's her name - the gal who got raped and or killed couple of decades back in NYC and everyone just looked away and did n't report it or nothin.
 
Kitty Genovese was her name Rusty. More than 20 witnesses and no call to the police. People are ill.

Living alone is a great luxury; not everyone can afford it. You can get by without the help and support of others if you have enough money. Americans are now so rich that we have grown used to living in tiny little groups and think it's normal. If you do live in a larger group it means you are a college student, or someone of similar age. By the time you are 30 you are expected to get by without roommates. This will change; the current system is not workable in the long term. Keep a spare bedroom or two ready for your children, parents, and friends.

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Namaste,
Jeff Paulsen

"Oh, a magic khukuri. Why didn't you say so?"


[This message has been edited by JeffPaulsen (edited 28 September 1999).]
 
We can be selective about which family ties we choose to cut -- I don't want to turn this forum into a therapy group, just to give an example: although both my parents were criminally insane that hasn't stopped me from taking care of my brother, or him of me when I was in need once.

However, because of the culture I live in, I don't have a vast army of cousins and more distant relatives for mutual support -- of course I have relatives, but I don't even know how to get in touch with most of them.... What if both my brother and I get sick at the same time??? That's what we've lost in this culture, and insurance and government programs are not adequate substitutes.

OTOH even in former times there were some people who didn't have family for mutual support ... that's why we created government programs and the insurance industry originally, to fill the gaps.

It sure would be nice if we could have both.

I'm doing my part ... for instance, once I was awakened in the middle of the night by an emergency phone call from a distant relative I'd never met and had hardly heard of -- I got dressed and went out and rescued him. Would he do the same for me? Frankly, I doubt it. Still, we do what we can ... and we can only hope....

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
I didn`t mean to criticize the Nepali system,only to point it out.The old law of primogeniture is not quite dead here either.Cultures develop things that work for them.Wage slaves replaced slave labor in the industrial revolution.Who was better off when they became too old to work?Half of the worlds population has never placed a phone call.Electricity came to the farm here in 1950.We forget just how recent our standard of living is,and that there are people, right here,still without electric,enough heat or enough to eat.Having a patron would be a benefit to them.Posts are brief, and easily misunderstood without prior knowledge of the poster.

[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 28 September 1999).]
 
For a knife discussion group, we sure do get into some interesting topics!
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I want to say that I like the attitudes I've been hearing here. Cougar, Right on! This is the Golden Rule in another wording. Do for them what you hope they would do for you if the tables were turned. They don't always, but sometimes it works out.
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I agree with almost everything Jim March said except possibly:
Native Americans universally did the same thing.

That depends on what you (Jim) meant by "the same thing." If you intended to mean that their extended family structures tended to be more cohesive than is frequently the case in US anglo culture nowadays, then I'd have to agree, but as we have mostly noted, that was true just about everywhere as a tendency! OTOH, if you intended to mean that the family structures were similar, then I'd have to disagree. "Native Americans" is a large and diverse group and as for family structures, look up the Iroquois for a pretty different, non-patriarchal structure.

Otherwise, Jim, I'm right with you and if I ever get an opportunity to shake your hand, this post will put a bit of extra energy into it!

Yeah, it's unfortunately true that not all families had the level of cohesiveness that we idealize as we look back through our rose-colored glasses. I suspect that several of us have some "black sheep" in our family trees. (I know I do.) But, historically, the tendency was for people to stick around pretty close to their family and to support each other. In the US, mobility is high and many of us are not living anywhere near where we grew up. However hard we try to keep our familial bonds in good shape, it gets difficult. Recall, too that most of the population of the US is descended from recent immigrants. (Recent enough that we know their names and/or relationships to us.) Those immigrants were frequently the very people who were willing (for whatever reason) to go off to some place distant from their homes with the expectation that they might never see their families again. I don't want to impute bad motives to anyone -- there were a lot of reasons, including desperation -- but most of us have now grown up in an environment of mobility and discontinuous family histories.

Jeff, I'm glad to see someone else remembers Kitty Genovese. I suspect you're also right that the current 'system' is not stable in the long term.


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Paul Neubauer
prn@bsu.edu

 
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