Curious on ESEE and Tom Brown Jr. Tracking

[Nathan Ihrke]

I know both delve deeply into survival training and was wondering how the two compared and differed. I would REALLY like to be able to attend these if I get the opportunity. Thanks for any info

 

[Gaurdian_A1]

I know that ESEE is awesome..training and products...i dont ever hear to much about tom brown aside from that phony "tracker knife" that a few people make.

 

[stoffi]

The Tracker is not a good knife. Tom Brown is an excellent wilderness survival teacher, but the knife that he made, The Tracker, is just a hunk of useless metal. However, it's a really high-quality made item; it's just the design that sucks. I've owned one and it is crap. Nothing about it is good. It is like chopping down a tree with a shovel, carving with a table knife and sawing with a wiresaw. It does everything, just not very good.

Regarding ESEE, I must say that I have more use of my fully convex-modified Izula and a regular Mora, than I have with my RC6. It has an excellent build quality, but the design isn't top notch. The edge contact is in front of the grip line, making it less controllable for fine cuts, there's a finger choil instead of a fine carving area, which could be OK, it's just that when you're carving for any longer than a few minutes, then it becomes uncomfortable to do so, because the spine of the blade (with f&%#ing jimping!)is digging into your palm-area between your index finger and thumb.

The handle area is really heavy compared to the blade, so as the blade wears down, the weight of the knife will become more and more focused in the palm area, which isn't optimal for chopping. The pendulum-effect is not in use.

Like I was on about with The Tracker, the build quality and finish are great, it's just the design that isn't as well executed.

Great quality stuff, just less than perfect designs. Putting on my flamesuit...

 

[Necrodamus]

Great quality stuff, just less than perfect designs. Putting on my flamesuit...

I dont think you need to worry about a flame suit here!
Different people have different opinions which is something we really like.
I think if anyone flamed you for sharing then more than likely Jeff would the one to say calm down.
I love my 5 but I will gladly admit its not for everyone.
I have big hands so the 5 fits nice. I have some issues with the 3 feeling a bit small but I still carry most everyday. The Izula, no way around it, its just damn handy!

 

[R.A.T.]

The Tracker is not a good knife. Tom Brown is an excellent wilderness survival teacher, but the knife that he made, The Tracker, is just a hunk of useless metal. However, it's a really high-quality made item; it's just the design that sucks. I've owned one and it is crap. Nothing about it is good. It is like chopping down a tree with a shovel, carving with a table knife and sawing with a wiresaw. It does everything, just not very good.

Regarding ESEE, I must say that I have more use of my fully convex-modified Izula and a regular Mora, than I have with my RC6. It has an excellent build quality, but the design isn't top notch. The edge contact is in front of the grip line, making it less controllable for fine cuts, there's a finger choil instead of a fine carving area, which could be OK, it's just that when you're carving for any longer than a few minutes, then it becomes uncomfortable to do so, because the spine of the blade (with f&%#ing jimping!)is digging into your palm-area between your index finger and thumb.

The handle area is really heavy compared to the blade, so as the blade wears down, the weight of the knife will become more and more focused in the palm area, which isn't optimal for chopping. The pendulum-effect is not in use.

Like I was on about with The Tracker, the build quality and finish are great, it's just the design that isn't as well executed.

Great quality stuff, just less than perfect designs. Putting on my flamesuit...

The only disagreement I have is personally I will take a cheap machete over ANY knife (including the Izula or Mora) for wilderness survival in sub-tropical to tropical regions.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The only disagreement I have is personally I will take a cheap machete over ANY knife (including the Izula or Mora) for wilderness survival in sub-tropical to temperate regions.

Fixed that for ya'.

In my experience a machete does everything I could need to do out in the woods of the North as well. It's easier and lighter to pack a machete than an axe, and an axe only holds an advantage when doing large quantities of dedicated felling or splitting (which a machete can do passably enough) while falling short when it comes to clearing lighter brush, digging, use as a draw knife, etc.

 

[Dizwolf]

The only disagreement I have is personally I will take a cheap machete over ANY knife (including the Izula or Mora) for wilderness survival in sub-tropical to tropical regions.

NE US here, and I've got to say.... you're slowly converting me to machetes.

As for the Six, I find it perfect. Mileage may vary.

 

[Horn Dog]

I had one of those Trackers for a while. As sold, it was not a good cutter. It came with an instruction manual on how to use its various features. After I reprofiled the edges, it was more useful, but I'd prefer the ESEE-6, or as Jeff says, a machete. I am really impressed with the new Junglas. That's a big survival knife that is light enough to use as a short machete.

 

[R.A.T.]

This small fixed blade knife stuff has been sold to people over the years as being the survival knife of professionals. Numerous real world instructors have taught us this and put it in our head. I was a believer too until I saw that a machete can do EVERYTHING and do it better and more efficient. Although I've been preaching this for many years, it's been a hard conversion to a lot of folks, and understandably so since carrying a large machete is sometimes harder to do in some areas than a small fixed blade. As for me, I carry a pocket folder and can do about anything I need to do with it, but the machete simply blows away any survival knife for a dedicated situation. Period.

 

[shotgunner11]

Sounds to me like the OP is asking about the training courses more than the blades they spawned.

Tom Brown gives good training but it's mixed in with a heaping mound of spiritual mumbo-jumbo. I also have my doubts about the truthfulness of his whole "grandfather" story. All that said, the info at the base of his training is good and sound. I wouldn't reccommend his training as your one and only source.

R.A.T. training is more compressed, no non-sense training. Faster paced and somewhat less intensive and without all the earthy, hippie stuff.

If your only going to take one class, I would skip Tom Brown and go with the R.A.T. training. Or, for a nice mix of the two, give On Point Tactical a try: http://www.onpointtactical.com/

I know the owner personally and hes a great guy and very knowlageable. He was one of the head teachers at the Tracker school (Tm Browns school) for a number of years before breaking out on his own.

 

[jeff_c]

This small fixed blade knife stuff has been sold to people over the years as being the survival knife of professionals. Numerous real world instructors have taught us this and put it in our head. I was a believer too until I saw that a machete can do EVERYTHING and do it better and more efficient. Although I've been preaching this for many years, it's been a hard conversion to a lot of folks, and understandably so since carrying a large machete is sometimes harder to do in some areas than a small fixed blade. As for me, I carry a pocket folder and can do about anything I need to do with it, but the machete simply blows away any survival knife for a dedicated situation. Period.

Jeff would you say that a machete is a better tool in "All" environments? Would you still prefer a machete even in the pine forests of the southern US, or the Canadian wilderness?

I guess why I am asking is because for years I have considered a machete as the ultimate JUNGLE tool. But as you alluded, I cant get my head around using one around here (Georgia).

You bring up a good point that when traveling on park trails where you might see other people, a machete is often a bit "scary".

Just curious on your thoughts... Machete over a fixed blade in all wooded environments?

 

[R.A.T.]

I personally cannot speak of Tom Brown becasue I have never been to one of his classes and only met him briefly one time. With that said, I know a lot of people that have been to his classes and I've always heard they were thoroughly impressed with the instruction they received.

I think training is the same as knives and gear. Some people focus more on one aspect while others focus on something different. Even in this region, my list of "survival priorities" often clash with some excellent instructors in the field. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong since the core knowledge is the same.

More than anything, I suggest getting training in all types of areas. No matter who you take it from you will walk away with more than you walked in with, so that's the important thing to think about. From that, develop your own experiences and practice sessions and grow comfortable with what you are doing. Same with knives. If you like Brand/Style A better than Brand/Style B and you are proficient with the tasks you employ it for, then what's there to argue about?

I thinik it is also imprtant to be diverse and not focus so much on one aspect of survival. Lots of folks practice fire making every day but never practice building a debris hut. Others spend loads of time in the woods identifying edibles without really knowing the basics that will keep you alive for the 3 days until rescue (most cases).

I vary my sklills training a lot. For example, I may sit down at nigth after the day's work is done and practice picking locks for a few hours or reverse engineering something to see how it can be done better or quicker. What I'm trying to stress here is don't let books and survival lore passed down for ages be your only focal point in your training. Get the basics but also ask "why" when someone tells you this is the way it should be done. Again, simply reading a book means absolutley zero in the real world, especially when you're frezzing your ass off wondering why that axe head striking against a rock is not making a flame in yoru tinder bundle.

 

[R.A.T.]

Machete over a fixed blade in all wooded environments?

For me and the areas from Alabama to the Equator, then answer is yes...without even a doubt.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Jeff would you say that a machete is a better tool in "All" environments? Would you still prefer a machete even in the pine forests of the southern US, or the Canadian wilderness?

I guess why I am asking is because for years I have considered a machete as the ultimate JUNGLE tool. But as you alluded, I cant get my head around using one around here (Georgia).

You bring up a good point that when traveling on park trails where you might see other people, a machete is often a bit "scary".

Just curious on your thoughts... Machete over a fixed blade in all wooded environments?

I know you were asking Jeff, but I'll offer my opinion: YES--I think the machete is the single most versatile and handy survival blade in any environment. And I'm in the dense temperate forests of Maine.

 

[R.A.T.]

We constantly get the question "If you feel the machete is the ultimate survival tool then why do you build other knives?" The answer to that is simple: business. I hardly ever use one of our knives in a survival training class (with the exception of the Lite Machete) but whatever we believe to be the best tool makes no difference to the knife market. Let's face it, you really only need one good knife, but we are all consumers and will buy more than one of anything. Also, some people simply want to be able to have various tools and sizes for the way they work and also like bells and whistles. Do power windows or seats in an automobile really make a difference in what a vehicle was dsigned to to: get you from point A to point B? We accommodate that market by supplying various tools and backing them with our no questions asked warranty. And while we believe in our product line without question, I will still take a cheap machete over any of our knives for my work in the woods, and yet will still buy knives from other makers almost weekly.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Get the basics but also ask "why" when someone tells you this is the way it should be done. Again, simply reading a book means absolutely zero in the real world, especially when you're freezing your ass off wondering why that axe head striking against a rock is not making a flame in your tinder bundle.

A great approach to life in general. Knowing anything without understanding the "why" behind it is only superficial knowledge. Concepts are almost always more important to understand than specific applications.

 

[shotgunner11]

I love a machete here in Tx. and I loved one while living in the Pine Barrens of NJ.

A machete rules on soft woods and brush but while I was in PA hardwoods, I was seriously outclassed by the guys packing a hatchet. I've batoned alot of pine and other soft woods with a machete without problems but the grain structure of harder woods made the thin machete blade flex and bind. Chopping was also really hard on the hands.

I think the region dictates the tool.

 

[R.A.T.]

A great approach to life in general.

Yeah, every so often a pearl of wisdom rolls out of this f'd up brain.

 

[Wanderlust]

I know you were asking Jeff, but I'll offer my opinion: YES--I think the machete is the single most versatile and handy survival blade in any environment. And I'm in the dense temperate forests of Maine.

I live in Michigan and have been converted to a Machete as well. Up until this year I never really found much use for them until there was a lot of talk around here of the usefulness of them even in a northern temperate forest. I have found them much more useful then any other single knife or axe. They are an extremely useful tool. Personally I like paring my machete up with an ESEE-3 for the smaller chores and food prep but that's just cause I like carrying and using it. In all reality though I have used a machete for everything I could ever dream of in the woods.

Now on to the OP question. I have never taken a RAT training course, I really would like to, but I have taken the Tom Brown Standard Course out of NJ. I really really like the course. I felt that the course covered the basics really well and gave you a lot of knowledge and skills and time to practice it with knowledgeable people around to ask questions of. But I am with a lot of other people on here in saying that any class you take you will learn something you didn't know before and you should always back up the learning with practice in a controlled environment. Also you should try and learn from as many different people as possible to find what works best for you. But I do think that any training course you take will be beneficial to you. You may want to look at what types of environments you will be most likely trying to survive in. If you live in the tropics then I would say don't take the Tom Brown course because he did not cover very much of that in my course but if you live in temperate areas then you may want to take the Tom Brown one.

Also remember that all skills are transferable between environments. If you learn the principles behind the skills then you can use them in any environment with some creativity.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I love a machete here in Tx. and I loved one while living in the Pine Barrens of NJ.

A machete rules on soft woods and brush but while I was in PA hardwoods, I was seriously outclassed by the guys packing a hatchet. I've batoned alot of pine and other soft woods with a machete without problems but the grain structure of harder woods made the thin machete blade flex and bind. Chopping was also really hard on the hands.

I think the region dictates the tool.

I've taken out reasonably large oak, beech, and maple trees no problem with a machete. I think that it helps to have one with a 20-24" blade in this region, however, or at least one with a broad or tip-heavy blade. I find myself usually going for my Condor Viking, Fiddleback/Collins 323, or Hansa Aguila Lampon. I have a design I'm in the process of prototyping that's geared towards a northern environment that has a 16" blade, but it's a whopping 4.6" at its widest point.