Curious on price difference between pen based on materials

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Bob6794

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Apr 21, 2013
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Let me first off start by saying I am NOT complaining about the prices, nor quality, value of these pens. I am just seeking information. In fact the aluminum investigator holds the title of being the first pen over $10 that I want. I just started looking at pens last night and that pen is 6x out of my comfort range for what I feel comfortable paying for a pen and I would have already bought if I weren't prone to losing pens.

I am curious as to what specifically causes the large premium between the steel/aluminum/brass/copper pens and the titanium. I understand titanium is more expensive but I am not sure how much more expensive. And that titanium is harder to machine but I would have though that would have just meant it wore down the equipment machining it a bit more. Or is there more steps to get a finished product in titanium done? Any insight in this would be greatly appreciated as my curiosity is getting the better of me.

And lastly if you have any tricks on how not to lose pens I'd love to hear it as my khaki pants/shorts seem to love tilting pens at just the right angle so I knock the pen out of my pocket when I move.
 
You kinda answered your own question. Time of machine operation/man hours, material costs, tool wear, and so on...all factor into the price of finished goods.

As for not losing it. Just assure it's still there after getting up from a seated position, after moving rapidly, etc. If wearing cargos tuck into a pocket corner and cover w/ pocket flap (if so equipped). The Investigators are small and their clips are nice and tight...all this helps keep them yours.
 
Actually I was curious as to if there was more steps or specialized machinery for building the titanium pens when compared to the other materials as the jump from $60 to $200 is a large enough price difference to spark my curiosity. And my thinking was it may be it may take more steps or specialized machinery to get it done or it is the material cost and machine/man hours to work with a harder to use material actually does drive the price up that much higher by itself.

I actually tried using the cargo pockets before, it's actually worse because when I sit down or kneel down I can stab myself in the leg with the pen and disloge it from my cargo pocket with or without the flap covering it. Sadly though I don't notice the pen is gone till I try to grab it and notice it's missing. I don't think I can get into the habit of checking the pen is still on me when I get up or move rapidly though, I never could with my knives so I came up with a better way to carry them to prevent losing them.
 
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Bob6794 said:
Actually I was curious as to if there was more steps or specialized machinery for building the titanium pens when compared to the other materials as the jump from $60 to $200 is a large enough price difference to spark my curiosity. And my thinking was it may be it may take more steps or specialized machinery to get it done or it is the material cost and machine/man hours to work with a harder to use material actually does drive the price up that much higher by itself.
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I believe they use the same CNC machines regardless of material, I don't believe there are more steps but the machining is potentially slower and harder on the tooling with titanium. I imagine sales volume plays into the pricing along with all the other factors N2K mentioned. Regardless, I doubt RHK is going to come into their forum and discuss their cost structure, their direct material and labor costs, pricing methodology, their manufacturing overhead and other intricacies of their business model.
 
Thanks Need2Know and RDA for your replies. Curiosity gets the better of me sometimes in making me wonder how things are made, I find it allows me to appreciate the build quality of things more.
 
Supply and demand always determine pricing.
Also, note what N2K said about the investigators being small. You shouldn't have a problem with one in your cargo pocket, just remember to take it out before washing.
 
Bob6794 said:
Thanks Need2Know and RDA for your replies. Curiosity gets the better of me sometimes in making me wonder how things are made, I find it allows me to appreciate the build quality of things more.
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I suffer from the same problem. That very issue (curiosity about how things are made) is what led to my first contact with Rick Hinderer. And now you know the rest of the story....

(my best Paul Harvey impersonation)

;)
 
mmassey338 said:
Supply and demand always determine pricing.
Also, note what N2K said about the investigators being small. You shouldn't have a problem with one in your cargo pocket, just remember to take it out before washing.
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Been there done this!!! :D
 
How did the washing machine hold up to the pen? Did you have to replace your washer?

But in all honesty did ink get everywhere? I've been lucky and never put a pen through the wash so far, though I have a feeling I just jinxed myself.
 
I assume the Ranch saves their cnc programs and instructions on how to setup the machine. The employee ($) just has to change tooling and the program for different materials (feed rates and spindle speeds change). After an hour (give or take) they are running that material and pumping out pens. Certain materials will cause more tool wear and slower feed rates (longer operating times$) to run, and deserve more attention while operating (time for the operator focusing on 1 machine, rather than 2), which brings up cost. BTW aluminum is extremely easy to machine, and copper is a pain (very gummy), as far as titanium goes I don't know to much beside Crisco works better than Mollyd for tapping.
 
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Bob6794 said:
How did the washing machine hold up to the pen? Did you have to replace your washer?

But in all honesty did ink get everywhere? I've been lucky and never put a pen through the wash so far, though I have a feeling I just jinxed myself.
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Yes, ink goes everywhere, and once ball point ink gets wet, it's almost impossible to remove. And when it happens, your wife's favorite blouse will be in there too. ;)
 
As others have mentioned, the design is the same, the process is likely quite similar, but the raw materials and processing are more spendy. I bought a steel Investigator some time back, and liked it so much, I got a (flame anodized) Ti one to go with it. They really are quite small - this can be a shock if you're not expecting it, but it's exactly what I wanted - think "Fisher Space/Bullet pen-sized, but completely indestructible."

Apart from market factors, and titanium stock costing more, I suspect tool wear may be a factor - there was a Kickstarter a while back for the "Prometheus Alpha Pen", and the guy doing it (a one man shop) did a lot of posts and videos along the way (worth googling if you're interested in machining processes), and machining/drilling out Ti pen bodies took longer and chewed up expensive tool bits _much_ more quickly than aluminum did (he offered the pen in both metals - basically did the Kickstarter to fund the CNC lathe he needed for the project).

Another noticeable factor between the Investigators is weight - the steel (and I'm guessing brass/copper) ones have some heft to them; no, it won't make you lean to one side, because it's so small... more like it feels quite dense in your hand. The Ti to me is a perfect middle weight. I got an aluminum one for a friend, and was surprised at just how light it felt.

I tend to carry the investigator clipped into a shirt pocket, or into the neckline of a T-shirt, and have never felt worried that they might get away - the pocket clip is small but mighty, and the whole pen is so small anyway. If you take the well-travelled path of putting o-rings in all the body grooves, they make it even a bit more grippy on cloth. (And if you're worried about getting poked, get the optional replacement flat-end attachment.)
 
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I didn't know copper was a pain to work with, first I've heard of it. If that is true it probably why I don't see as extensive use of it in some fields as I would expect. I always just assumed that metal was metal and wear resistance was the primary difference in machining parts from it.

That's sounds like a bad experience with the ink getting everywhere. I've never experienced that so far due to usually being more of a mechanical pencil kind of guy due to liking how they write over every pen I've tried so far but unfortunately for signing documents and writing things on the go I think a pen is far superior.

I take a look into the Prometheus Alpha Pen and try to dig up the posts and video's he did that sounds quite interesting if he shows how it's machined. The added o-rings sounds like a good idea, that is actually pretty close to the solution I came up with how not to lose my knives and my wallet (credit cards with money wrapped around and rubber band holding it together) and than I slide the knife in below the rubber band. The added grip keeps it from falling out of my pocket and secures it to the bottom of my pocket quite well. And I was actually looking at the flat-end attachment not for the fear of getting poked but to make it look less like a tactical pen that can be used for self defense (no intent on using it as such) and more like a finely made CNC pen as I am not a fan of the bullet like tip from an aesthetic point of view.

I was also looking at the weight before I made the posts and was quite surprised at the weight differences between materials, I didn't think it be quite so drastic. Even if the price for the aluminum and titanium was the same I think I spring for the aluminum almost every time as I prefer lighter pens, but I can definitely see the titanium weight being ideal for some people.

I think I will starting trying to EDC some pens I already have and try to come up with a solution on how to not lose them so hopefully and can make a purchase like this without fear of losing such a nice pen. Fortunately for me I found my favorite pen at a dollar store last year and bought every one they had so I have a reserve of at least 7 of them still in their packages waiting to replace any I lose during this experiment.

Actually I just measured one of my knives I carry with my "wallet" and the pen is slightly longer but not by much. So I may be able to easily carry it there. That may prove interesting considering I always have that with me where ever I go already. I think I may have to find a cheaper smaller cheaper pen to experiment with but that may work out nicely.
 
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Yes, the copper can be a pain, it causes RHK certain particular machining issues compared to the alternatives.
 
Well I have a far deeper appreciation of what it takes to deal with some of these materials and the work that goes into making these after doing more research on it. Thanks for all the help!
 
Couple things...not sure if mentioned yet..skimmed the wordy posts not reading every word...but...

As for Investigators in the washing machine / water....use of the o-ring and a tightened cap help keep water out...not foolproof or perfect but...

And as for pens in the wallet...sounds pretty inconvenient to me. I guess depends on the wallet and how one carries it...but I see it cumbersome to dig too deep when I need a pen.
 
As for the difference in cost, you always have to factor in the scarcity/demand of a product. Think of it as reverse supply/demand: the harder it is to get something, the more people are willing to pay for it. Why would RHK lower the price if people are already buying plenty at the current price?
 
It's not really a wallet it's just my credit cards and money wrapped around it and it's held together by a rubber band. I actually have my EDC knife for the day placed under the rubber band if it doesn't have a pocket clip and it works quite well. I decided to place a narrow pen between the money and the cards and it worked halfway decently. Not as easily accessable as being clipped to a pocket but I don't use pens very often so this may actually work out good for me, I just need to pick up something small and cheap to experiment this with to see if it's actually practical as I don't want a full size pen in my pocket.

Do you mean having a washer wear the threads are to make it more water resistant?

For the supply and demand part that is kind of what set off my curiosity because I would assume that the majority of people would scale their prices based on that if given the option. But I am not so certain with Rick Hinderer, but I can't claim to know anything about him. All I know that when I had a large interest in his knives awhile back they were going for around 2x the price on the second hand market compared to what he sold them for and that he could have probably raised his prices and still couldn't keep up with demand but didn't. So that made me question my supply and demand theory for the price when I first saw the price differences.
 
The o-ring I mentioned is used to keep the cap secure...it's optional, but I use it. And I wrapped the threads on the bullet ends w/ a tiny amount of plumber's tape/ thread seal tape so they are less likely to unscrew. All this helps keep water out...not foolproof...not waterproof...but better than nothing.
 
Need2Know said:
You kinda answered your own question. Time of machine operation/man hours, material costs, tool wear, and so on...all factor into the price of finished goods.
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Said best here. I deal with machining and production costs regularly and this is spot on. Not to mention machining Ti in any way can be really tricky if you have not done it before. Not to mention costs on it can be VERY steep just for the raw material.
 
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