Current 'White Hat' Self Defense folders???

O

OrangeJoe

Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
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I just saw some old interesting info on the Spyderco Civilian / Matriarch. Those two models were specifically developed for Self Defence by the non military user, ie police and common good guys/gals (what the company refered to as White Hats).

The Matriarch , was specially designed for a woman's self defense course, IIRC.

From a quick google search I see the Civie is still around. +/- $125.00

Question is, What if any, are the other Self Defense Specific folders out there, designed and marketed with the common civilian in mind?

I'm interested in serious realistic efforts like the above mentioned Spydies (design, marketing, name and price point chosen with real life -after the fact-issues in mind), but feel free to post all covert deanimators if you must :).

Just remembered there was something designed with input from Masaad Ayoob, can't remember where, pretty sure it was fixed blade though.
 
P'kal, Gunting, Chinook, Ayoob folder, hmm, all spydies

AFAIK, the initial offerings of MOD were all SD designs by MA trainers, hence the company name.

Crawford/Kasper, Wortac, Pesh Kabz, I dunno how militaristic these are considered.
 
all emersons are SD oriented.

hows about darkops?? arent they SD knives with all the bells/whistles, lol.
 
hardheart said:
P'kal, Gunting, Chinook, Ayoob folder, hmm, all spydies

AFAIK, the initial offerings of MOD were all SD ....
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I don't explain myself that well sometimes :).

I guess you could call all spydies, SD tools. But Sal himself, puts the Civilian and Matriarch in a special category. This are SELF DEFENSE ONLY folders. As a matter of fact they go as far as to void your warranty if you use it for utility tasks. The blade shape/lenght, handle shape/material/size, the non threatening name, the price point, the distribuition channels are ALL SELECTED TO GET THIS KNIVES INTO THE HANDS OF EVERYDAY FOLKS 'White Hats' TO USE AS EDC FOR SELF DEFENSE.

I had the MOD catalog with the Ayoob and besides the non practical for EDC shape configuration, the fact that being a fixed blade puts it out of the legally carried options for a large number of users .

The rest of the MOD oferings IIRC, where hard use military / rescue folders with glass breakers and seat belt cutters. Kind of like a serious version of a Dork Ops.

I wil have to check the rest of the options you give hardheart, but again I'm interested in those few and far between civilian, common good guy designs that take the WHOLE sd scenario in mind, both pre and after the fact considerations.

Thanks for the info!!!
 
Things may be different in Puerto Rico, but in the U.S., no matter how they sell/market the civilian, if you are a regular guy and you use it on someone, and end up in court, when the prosecutor holds it up, it's not gonna look like a good guy knife. There are no other knives I can think of that are marketed quite the same as the civilian/matriarch knives. But I also thought that they where first made for undercover police officers (the civilian, at least). So for me, as a regular guy (I think?), looking at the civilian knife, this is what I see: It was made for undercover law enforcement (which I'm not), it looks very scary to average people, and it's made specifically for self-defense (use on nothing but humans). It seems as though I might as well be carrying an "Advanced Folding Combat Knife" or a "Close Quarter Battle #7" if I feel they are the better design. They both resemble a tool and can be used as one every day. Or better yet, just a plain old Endura4, which doesn't look scary, sound scary, wasn't made for S.D. or undercover police, can be used as a tool -but can still work for defense if you need it to. I guess it's just my opinion to carry the S.D. knife you feel most comfortable regardless of marketing, as the first thing you need to do is survive if you have to use it. Also, I think the marketing of the civilian may be a negitive unless you are involved with L.E..
 
Hi Orange Joe,

Siggy raises some good points. The Civilian was designed and built for law enforcement professionals. It might be questioned in an incident where it was acutally used, in the USA. I don't know local laws where you are but it might be good to check them out.

The Matriarch was built for South Africa where it is legal to defend yourself. I know of one situation where a South African civilian was attacked by a group while he was trying to enter his home. He ended up slashing one of the perps. He was charged, but got off on Self defense. the tool worked for him and stopped the attack.

The basis of the tool is a natural motion, Spyderco just added a bigger claw. You might look into a SPOT (serrated is more aggressive). Same concept, but small and legal just about anywhere, with less likelyhood of dropping the tool. Kept sharp (means no utility use) it is, IMO, quite formidable. About the size of a claw on a tiger or bear, but much sharper.

However as suggested, an Endura or Delica (kept sharp) will also serve.

The new P'kal, with very little training, (Shivworks DVD) also serves in the same area.

sal
 
The Hobbits were designed exclusively for reverse grip techniques, joint locks, etc. hence the strange "sawback" design.

I could name a couple knives well suited to us untrained silly-vilians, but none really beyond what you've mentioned that are exclusively purpose built for that kind of thing.

Chris Caracci designed his Pendulum several years back using a straight razor as a primary design concept, maybe that would count?
 
Siggyhk said:
Things may be different in Puerto Rico, but in the U.S.,
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Last time I checked, Puerto Rico was still a part of the U.S. :)

no matter how they sell/market the civilian, if you are a regular guy and you use it on someone, and end up in court, when the prosecutor holds it up, it's not gonna look like a good guy knife. There are no other knives I can think of that are marketed quite the same as the civilian/matriarch knives. But I also thought that they where first made for undercover police officers (the civilian, at least). So for me, as a regular guy (I think?), looking at the civilian knife, this is what I see: It was made for undercover law enforcement (which I'm not), it looks very scary to average people, and it's made specifically for self-defense (use on nothing but humans). It seems as though I might as well be carrying an "Advanced Folding Combat Knife" or a "Close Quarter Battle #7" if I feel they are the better design. They both resemble a tool and can be used as one every day. Or better yet, just a plain old Endura4, which doesn't look scary, sound scary, wasn't made for S.D. or undercover police, can be used as a tool -but can still work for defense if you need it to. I guess it's just my opinion to carry the S.D. knife you feel most comfortable regardless of marketing, as the first thing you need to do is survive if you have to use it. Also, I think the marketing of the civilian may be a negitive unless you are involved with L.E..
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I get what your saying . This was basicaly an educational exercise on my part to sell myself on my current short list.

Since Sal already pitched in (thank you) I will have to say that indeed at this point the Waved Delica is looking like the winner for a dedicated SD EDC. I will have to find a local dealer stocking the Endura to see if it's not as huge as I believe. The other contenders where/are the Mini Emerson with Tanto blade (see my folding pry bar thread) and the 881 Buck Strider.

I think for EDC, the waved designs will be my choice. I sincerely hope to never have a NEED to get any knife opened that quickly, but I sure as heck appreciate the posibility of doing so on a practical pocket sized tool.
 
You might add the HAK, as it is marketed for SD, and carried as a last resort by many professionals. It is a fixed blade, but under two inches, and apparently meets CA law.

Properly handled, I believe it will do just as well, as long as you train in its' appropriate use, just as with any edged weapon.

With sufficient training, the type of knife becomes much less important, and allows you to carry utility specific blades that are hard to demonize in the courtroom.
 
So, to keep this rolling.

What kind of training do the forumites have on edged tool SD?

Are there any specific trainers/courses/books you would recommend? I know there is a Spydie Civilian-specific video by J. Keating. Any other

-I believe I have the theoretical sicological/legal/common sense angle covered with the book selections I made when I first chose to buy a firearm. Ayoob and a few others.-

I know ANY profesional knife defense course probably puts you ahead of 99% of the population in such skills. How much formal training did it take for those on the forum to feel they were in a position to use the tool efectively

A one day course with ongoing constant dedicated practice?
A week long course?
A long schooling in a traditinal MA which includes edged weapons?

When the music stops, nobody wants to be the guy with the guitar, who doesn't know how to play!

How do YOU prepare?
 
oops, I didn't mean all spydies were built as SD tools, just that the purpose built ones that immediately came to mind were spydies.

the first MODs didn't have the extra tools Dieter introduced (Ayoob Razorback, Janich Tempest, Casillas Hawk, Keating Hornet and Watson Trident). I always thought it was weird to offer the fb razorback as a SD tool to the masses. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685767 gives a nice little account of the beginning and what was added by the CQD.
 
Orange Joe, check out the practical tactical section in the traning area for more specific information about training and related things. Also, I didn't mean to come across as saying the civilian is a poor choice for sd, just that it's marketing isn't one of it's high points to me. Part of the beauty of the civilian is it's ability to be used effectively by under-trained people. I've heard the Keating video is very good too. Lastly, the Endura isn't a huge knife -fullsize, but not huge. Carries well.
 
hardheart, I hear you. Thanks for the article link.

Siggyhk said:
Orange Joe, check out the practical tactical section in the traning area for more specific information about training and related things. Also, I didn't mean to come across as saying the civilian is a poor choice for sd, just that it's marketing isn't one of it's high points to me. Part of the beauty of the civilian is it's ability to be used effectively by under-trained people. I've heard the Keating video is very good too. Lastly, the Endura isn't a huge knife -fullsize, but not huge. Carries well.
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I agree, I really have not worked my way through the tactical - practical section. Lots of more reading in my future.

Will research the issue over there.
 
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