Well, after spending the entire day, until Midnight working on the first 2 protos, I have gotten 4 handles, 2 blades. One blade is finished and is attached to the handles. This knife is mirror finished ats34 with solid bar aluminum and heavy duty pins. One handle is finished as you can see in the picture. The second picture, bali2, is the parts for knife #2 which I havent started on yet as I ran out of time. After surveying materials, speaking with Reese about parts and labor, the standard model will still be $350 for an solid aluminum handle, ats34 blade and heavy duty pins. Inlays are available on that model. For an all titanium model, the price will have to be higher as we would have to mill out new handles. I plan on sending these first two around to bali lovers for test purposes, cause if the knife sucks, why should I make it? I want one that is wonderful to use and will last forever. Here are the progress pictures. http://web.tampabay.rr.com/bandityo/bali1.JPG http://web.tampabay.rr.com/bandityo/bali2.JPG
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Custom Balisong Update- progress
- Thread starter Bandityo
- Start date
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
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- 29,258
Wow! You are making fast progress.
Those certainly does look like Miller's balisongs.
The one major objection I've had to his balisongs is that the handles are to light. Have you considered Stainless Steel for the handles?
Anyway, I, for one, am delighted to see yet another custom maker taking an interest in balisongs and I can't wait to see the finished product.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Those certainly does look like Miller's balisongs.
The one major objection I've had to his balisongs is that the handles are to light. Have you considered Stainless Steel for the handles?
Anyway, I, for one, am delighted to see yet another custom maker taking an interest in balisongs and I can't wait to see the finished product.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Chuck,
Yes I can make the handles in stainless steel. In fact, I have some already milled in steel. I thought that since the BM42 is so light you guys would like it in all bar stock aluminum. But steel is just as easy. Oh, I forgot to mention that in bali2 picture, those are the titanium handles.
david
Yes I can make the handles in stainless steel. In fact, I have some already milled in steel. I thought that since the BM42 is so light you guys would like it in all bar stock aluminum. But steel is just as easy. Oh, I forgot to mention that in bali2 picture, those are the titanium handles.
david
Clay
Balisong forum Moderator
- Joined
- Jul 15, 1999
- Messages
- 871
Very cool!
You gotta love all the custom activity thats goin' on around here!
I do agree with Chuck on the weight of the Aluminum handles though......... a bit too light.
Steel sounds good...........
But just out of curiosity, how would Brass handles effect the price?? One of my all time favorites was an old Brass handled Bali that I manipulated to death a few years ago. Damn I miss that thing! (Chuck happens to have one just like it).
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Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
You gotta love all the custom activity thats goin' on around here!
I do agree with Chuck on the weight of the Aluminum handles though......... a bit too light.
Steel sounds good...........
But just out of curiosity, how would Brass handles effect the price?? One of my all time favorites was an old Brass handled Bali that I manipulated to death a few years ago. Damn I miss that thing! (Chuck happens to have one just like it).
------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
Clay...hmm....I can see it now... brass handles and a mirror finished blade flashing shards of light! That would look good! I will look into that and see what that would take to make happen as well.
Lemme ask you, since I dont own a BM42, how does aluminum handles compare to the weight of ti- benchmade handles? Is alum that much lighter than ti bali? I know the steel handles are heavier though.
Lemme ask you, since I dont own a BM42, how does aluminum handles compare to the weight of ti- benchmade handles? Is alum that much lighter than ti bali? I know the steel handles are heavier though.
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
Oh, Clay, you're a genious! Brass. Why didn't I think of brass. I love polished brass.
As for weight, well, of course when we talk about Ti or Al, we're actually talking about alloys. But, just as a quick reference, Aluminum is atomic #13, Titanium is 22. So, Ti is going to be about 1.7 times heavier than Aluminum. That's a significant weight difference. Steel varies greatly by alloy, but typical stainless is about 1.7 times heavier than Ti. I have several answered questions about handle weight by presenting a Miller, a BM42, and a BM45. All three are about the same size, but the weight difference and the difference it makes in how the knife handles is dramatic.
Brass actually has a bit higher density than even steel. Stainless runs around 7.75 g/cm3. Brass is about 8.56 g/cm3.
I gotta agree with Clay. Brass is beautiful and it's got great heft.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
As for weight, well, of course when we talk about Ti or Al, we're actually talking about alloys. But, just as a quick reference, Aluminum is atomic #13, Titanium is 22. So, Ti is going to be about 1.7 times heavier than Aluminum. That's a significant weight difference. Steel varies greatly by alloy, but typical stainless is about 1.7 times heavier than Ti. I have several answered questions about handle weight by presenting a Miller, a BM42, and a BM45. All three are about the same size, but the weight difference and the difference it makes in how the knife handles is dramatic.
Brass actually has a bit higher density than even steel. Stainless runs around 7.75 g/cm3. Brass is about 8.56 g/cm3.
I gotta agree with Clay. Brass is beautiful and it's got great heft.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Clay
Balisong forum Moderator
- Joined
- Jul 15, 1999
- Messages
- 871
Thank you ..... thank you.
We're having a cool spell here in 'Joisey and thats when I come to life. I think best when my brain isn't boiling inside my skull.
Chuck is the scientific guy, and I'm sure his numbers prove out.......... I'm just not sure what the heck they mean.
From a totaly NON-scientific stand point (that would be ME), the difference between Aluminum and Titanium comes down to feel.
~ Aluminum is light and feels hollow.
~ Ti is light, yet it feels incredibly solid and dense.
Aluminum handles actually seem to take more hand/wrist/arm effort to manipulate. They're just too light to retain the inertia from a subtle hand movement that would otherwise keep Ti handles in motion.
------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
We're having a cool spell here in 'Joisey and thats when I come to life. I think best when my brain isn't boiling inside my skull.
Chuck is the scientific guy, and I'm sure his numbers prove out.......... I'm just not sure what the heck they mean.
From a totaly NON-scientific stand point (that would be ME), the difference between Aluminum and Titanium comes down to feel.
~ Aluminum is light and feels hollow.
~ Ti is light, yet it feels incredibly solid and dense.
Aluminum handles actually seem to take more hand/wrist/arm effort to manipulate. They're just too light to retain the inertia from a subtle hand movement that would otherwise keep Ti handles in motion.
------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2000
- Messages
- 3,221
Here's an idea I've been playing with:
Inertia is related to the weight of the handles, but also the way in which that weight is concentrated. For normal handles, the concentration is even along the length of the handle. However, using Ti handles and replacing some amount of the far ends (away from the blade) with stainless would increase the inertia a lot by concentrating the mass of the handles outward, without bringing the weight up to the same level as that of handles which are stainless all the way. Something to think about, anyway. The knife would stay fairly light, like Ti, but the feel of the handles when in motion would be more similar to that of an all-steel knife.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
Inertia is related to the weight of the handles, but also the way in which that weight is concentrated. For normal handles, the concentration is even along the length of the handle. However, using Ti handles and replacing some amount of the far ends (away from the blade) with stainless would increase the inertia a lot by concentrating the mass of the handles outward, without bringing the weight up to the same level as that of handles which are stainless all the way. Something to think about, anyway. The knife would stay fairly light, like Ti, but the feel of the handles when in motion would be more similar to that of an all-steel knife.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
- Joined
- Sep 4, 1999
- Messages
- 591
I actually would like the model with aluminum handles. I remember a loooong...time ago having some taylor manila folders with aluminum handles and they were blur fast to work.
So if you do make some with aluminum handles before switching to SS,brass or Ti, I'd be interested in one.
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Tim
So if you do make some with aluminum handles before switching to SS,brass or Ti, I'd be interested in one.
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Tim
Chefget
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,064
I've got a Mller that I've been told is magnesium(?) Very light but performs really nice, a very different feel (reminiscent of when the oversized tennis rackets first came out!)
-Michael
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Chefget's Knife Page
Kitchen Management software
-Michael
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Chefget's Knife Page
Kitchen Management software
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
I've got one in Mg too. Mg is only slighly lighter than Al. Al is atomic #13 and Mg is just above it at #12.
Atomic number is the number of protons in the atom. Without getting into complex sub-atomic physics, atoms are basically made of three parts: protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons and Neutrons weigh about the same and normally an atom has the same number of protons as it does neutrons. An atom always has the same number of electrons as it does protons (if it doesn't, then it's an ion, not an atom and ions are not stable). Electrons are significantly lighter than protons. So, atomic number is a measure of the weight of one atom of an element. Hydrogen with an atomic number of one is the lightest element. Ununoctium at 118 is the heaviest discovered yet. A typical 4" balisong with Ununoctium handles would weigh in at about five and one-half pounds. But, lest you get any ideas about making a balisong out Ununoctium, don't forget that aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of a gram of the stuff exists, it's also a gas at room temperature.
The error in using atomic numbers for this purpose is that metals are rarely used in their pure forms. We almost always use some kind of alloy and that screws up the calculations. But, atomic numbers can give you a rought idea.
Mg is 12. Al is 13. So, you can expect a Mg-handled balisong to be just a little lighter than a Mg one.
Al is 13 and Ti is 22. 22 is about 1.7 times 13, so you can expect a Ti balisong to be about 1.7 times a heavy as an Al one. Two times as heavy would be twice as heavy.
Steel is an alloy and so it doesn't have an atomic number. Furthermore, it's a metal alloy so it doesn't even form tight molecules. But, the equivalent of atomic number for steel is about 37 or 38 depending on alloy. That's about 1.7 times 22, the atomic number of Ti. So, you can expect a steel balisong to weigh about 1.7 times what a Ti one would.
So, curiously, the weight change from Ti to steel is about the same as from Al to Ti.
Brass is also an alloy. It's equivalent of atomic number is about 41.5. Well, 37.5 to 41.5 isn't that much of a change, about 1.1 times. So, a brass balisong is only slightly, about 10%, heavier than a steel one would be.
Of course, I've neglected the blade here. The blade is typically always steel. So, it's gonna make the weight differences less dramatic.
One of the skills I most value in life is the ability to estimate things quickly. Mg is a bit of an exotic material. It's expensive, most of it is imported, which runs the cost up more, and working it requires special tooling and skilled workers. Al is dirt cheap, domestically-sourced, and easy to work with inexpensive, common tools. Is there a great weight advantage going from Al down to Mg, from atomic number 13 down to number 12? No, not much. And the cost of making that change is considerable and probably not worth it. I didn't have to do a lot of detailed analysis to reach that conclusion. I made a few reasonable assumptions and then I estimated. Quick and easy.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Atomic number is the number of protons in the atom. Without getting into complex sub-atomic physics, atoms are basically made of three parts: protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons and Neutrons weigh about the same and normally an atom has the same number of protons as it does neutrons. An atom always has the same number of electrons as it does protons (if it doesn't, then it's an ion, not an atom and ions are not stable). Electrons are significantly lighter than protons. So, atomic number is a measure of the weight of one atom of an element. Hydrogen with an atomic number of one is the lightest element. Ununoctium at 118 is the heaviest discovered yet. A typical 4" balisong with Ununoctium handles would weigh in at about five and one-half pounds. But, lest you get any ideas about making a balisong out Ununoctium, don't forget that aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of a gram of the stuff exists, it's also a gas at room temperature.
The error in using atomic numbers for this purpose is that metals are rarely used in their pure forms. We almost always use some kind of alloy and that screws up the calculations. But, atomic numbers can give you a rought idea.
Mg is 12. Al is 13. So, you can expect a Mg-handled balisong to be just a little lighter than a Mg one.
Al is 13 and Ti is 22. 22 is about 1.7 times 13, so you can expect a Ti balisong to be about 1.7 times a heavy as an Al one. Two times as heavy would be twice as heavy.
Steel is an alloy and so it doesn't have an atomic number. Furthermore, it's a metal alloy so it doesn't even form tight molecules. But, the equivalent of atomic number for steel is about 37 or 38 depending on alloy. That's about 1.7 times 22, the atomic number of Ti. So, you can expect a steel balisong to weigh about 1.7 times what a Ti one would.
So, curiously, the weight change from Ti to steel is about the same as from Al to Ti.
Brass is also an alloy. It's equivalent of atomic number is about 41.5. Well, 37.5 to 41.5 isn't that much of a change, about 1.1 times. So, a brass balisong is only slightly, about 10%, heavier than a steel one would be.
Of course, I've neglected the blade here. The blade is typically always steel. So, it's gonna make the weight differences less dramatic.
One of the skills I most value in life is the ability to estimate things quickly. Mg is a bit of an exotic material. It's expensive, most of it is imported, which runs the cost up more, and working it requires special tooling and skilled workers. Al is dirt cheap, domestically-sourced, and easy to work with inexpensive, common tools. Is there a great weight advantage going from Al down to Mg, from atomic number 13 down to number 12? No, not much. And the cost of making that change is considerable and probably not worth it. I didn't have to do a lot of detailed analysis to reach that conclusion. I made a few reasonable assumptions and then I estimated. Quick and easy.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Clay
Balisong forum Moderator
- Joined
- Jul 15, 1999
- Messages
- 871
e_utopia's idea actually sounds like a good one. It could probably even help the Aluminum handles work.
You could go with either:
~ Steel "butt-caps" that could be screwed into the end of the handles. Adding the weight toward the back where it would do the most good.
-or-
~ In the case of a skeleton handled Balisong, Tap the holes in the handles. This would allow you to screw small weighted plugs into them. That way the end user can add the weight where ever they want (ie: In the middle, or more toward the end).
I have a throwing knife that has this type of set-up, and it works great.
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Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
You could go with either:
~ Steel "butt-caps" that could be screwed into the end of the handles. Adding the weight toward the back where it would do the most good.
-or-
~ In the case of a skeleton handled Balisong, Tap the holes in the handles. This would allow you to screw small weighted plugs into them. That way the end user can add the weight where ever they want (ie: In the middle, or more toward the end).
I have a throwing knife that has this type of set-up, and it works great.
------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
Random
I PWN |\|00bs
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2000
- Messages
- 1,373
Chuck,
Thanks for the Physics refresher. (Seriously)
What do you do for a living? A metallurgist for NASA perhaps?
Clay,
I love the screw in "butt-caps" idea! I can imagine a lot of mix and match sets i.e. polished Skeletonized Al handles with anodized brass caps etc.
Thanks for the Physics refresher. (Seriously)
What do you do for a living? A metallurgist for NASA perhaps?
Clay,
I love the screw in "butt-caps" idea! I can imagine a lot of mix and match sets i.e. polished Skeletonized Al handles with anodized brass caps etc.
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
What do I do for a living? I am a retired engineer. I still work though, but as a full-time volunteer for several Christian charities. I do everything from strong-arming corporate suits for big bucks to loading trucks. Where there is a need, I fill it. I'm busier now than ever and I'm pretty happy too.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
BTW, for those of you new to bladeforums.com, and there are many of you, I know, at the top of every post is a line with several icons. One is a box with a question mark in it. Click on that and you can see the poster's profile. While not everybody fills theirs in, the profile usually includes a little bit of background about the person, occupation, geographic location, etc. It often includes their e-mail addres so you can e-mail them privately, and may have a web site URL if that person has a website. It's a handy way to help us get to know each other a little more.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com