Custom "Buyer" Pet Peeves

marcangel

marcangel

Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
1,217
I do not intend for this thread to be a rant, but the one thing that REALLY ticks me off about alot of custom or handmade knives is they don't come "sharp". I mean REALLY sharp! I understand that a maker is "concerned" he may be held liable for someone hurting themselves with their product, especially at shows. But if I order a knife from a maker, I expect it to be AT least Benchmade sharp, and preferably, Wm. Henry or Microtech sharp! Hell, I ordered the knife, I'm a collector, I KNOW knives are sharp, cutting tools, send me a SHARP cutting tool! At least 80% of the customs I've received directly from the maker, need to be sharpened. Probably the first thing another knife enthusiast does after picking up another friend's new blade is check the edge, it's pretty embarassing if the thing will barely cut paper. Dear Makers...please send us sharp knives!
 
Never had that problem myself but then again I have only owned a dozen or so customs. Every one has come from very sharp to scary sharp. I have had way more problems with production knives not coming as sharp as I thought they should be.
 
Having to sharpen a new knife may be a rite of passage of sorts....

I have a dozen or so custom knives and the sharpness ranged from "scary sharp" to "sorta sharp". I dont really mind having to sharpen so its not too much of a nuisance to me so long as I dont have to do major edge rework.

Dont know what the standard is but the sharpest knife I ever held was an RJ Martin kozuka. Not just scary sharp, it was frighteningly sharp.

Andrew Limsk
 
Are you looking for a wire edge knife? Seriously - in my experience, the knives I've gotten have been delivered with a working edge. Getting a scary-sharp edge is the responsibility of the buyer - at least that's the unspoken norm in my experience...

Tim
 
If you ask about the sharpest knives you will always hear the same group of names come up over and over, these are people like R.J. Martin and Dozier who set very high standards for the cutting ability of their knives, and you can't cut very well with a blunt edge. So the obvious point that I would make is that if this is a primary concern of yours you are buying from the wrong people.

-Cliff
 
Oh yeah - one thing I completely forgot. If it's a custom piece you should be able to request "scary sharp". Most makers I know will do it if you request it.

Tim
 
As for C. Marlowe, he sends ultra-scary, frighteningly, sharp blades on request!:eek: (We had this conversation before he shipped my last knife. I'm not naming names regarding makers who don't send you a scary sharp blade. I simply wanted to find out if I'm unique here (i.e. wrong), and hopefully convey to the makers that read this stuff that most of us like our blades sharp (at least I think). It also came up for conversation at a local knife shop where the owner does alot of work sharpening customs for folks. Yes, I can put a good edge on a blade, no I don't round tips anymore. But I still get more than a little anxious messing around with a brand new $500-$1000 knife that barely cuts paper! Then I wind up with a "brand new" sharpened knife, which at least to some, detracts from its value.:barf:
Regarding the liability issue, if the smaller manufacurers, such as Microtech, etc. are willing to send out LOTS of razor sharp blades to unknown people, shouldn't the makers do the same?:(
 
Steve

I can sure understand how you feel, but I can also assure you that I have yet to find a maker who's knives didn't arrive scary sharp when I've mentioned to them that I wanted them that way. I can also say that the only time I was really dissappointed with how sharp a knife was, was when I bought one that had been in a dealers stock for some time. it was not ordered directly from the maker.

Tell them what you want and I'm pretty sure that they will send you just what you're after.
 
Why would you have to request a sharp edge. That is like asking for the sheath to fit, or the grinds to be even. Shouldn't that be pretty much a given.

-Cliff
 
I would always want scary sharp unless I specified something less. I have received many that were nowhere near that standard. What really annoys me is a beautiful knife with an edge that is sharp in some places and dull in others. I'd rather have uniformly dull than inconsistent. At least it's easier for me to solve the problem.

I really like Murray Carter's knives for their sharpness, among other reasons. Every time you open a box and feel the edge you ask "how the heck does he get them that sharp"?
 
Guys, you are missing a key point. What is the knife intended to do? Custom makers design knives with the knifes purpose in mind. This follows through on the final edge angle. If you are talking about a small pocket knife, then yes the edge should be very fine. However, if you are talking about a large chopper the edge will not be as fine. It should still be sharp, but not ultra fine sharp. A super fine edge on a chopper will last all of two seconds in real world use.

If you order one of my MAUs, it will come straight razor sharp. Why? Becuase it is a slicing tool. The edge is ground to 0 and then polished. However, if you order a CF it will be sharp enough to give you a bad cut, but don't try slicing cigarette paper with it. That is not what it was designed for. It is not ground to zero and the angle is not as steep. It is a chopping tool. For a chopper you need more meat behind that edge. Unless you want the secondary bevel halfway up the blade it will not be "scary sharp"! Even if you did desire that the edge be "scary sharp" the edge would not last when the knife is used in the manner that it was designed to be used for!

I am not excussing a straight up dull edge, however I am saying to focus on the overall design. Not all knives should pop hairs. And make sure that a edge is really dull before getting bent out of shape. I had a person come up to my table at a show. He was handling one of my MAUs. With a sour note he said "If I buy it will you sharpen it, its pretty darn dull right now" as he ran his finger across the edge. I looked at him and said be carefull it is very sharp. Once again he stated that would not cut butter. I took the knife out of his hand and proceeded to shave a large portion of hair off my arm in a single light pass. He turned ghost white and started checking his finger for cuts. I simply stated that what he mistook for sharpness was a wire edge. Since this knife really was sharp he felt no wire edge.
 
Marcangel,
When my work becomes more available for sale, I hope you consider what I will have to offer.
Personally, I take great pride in the kind of edge I can put on my blades. The edge is the #1 factor in making a blade, all other design areas are secondary. All follows the edge. ALL.

-Jason
 
R.W.Clark :

[final edge angle]


If you are talking about a small pocket knife, then yes the edge should be very fine. However, if you are talking about a large chopper the edge will not be as fine.
Click to expand...

The subject was on sharpness, not edge profile. A very thick and obtuse edge can still be very sharp which is a different aspect than edge finish and alignment [sharpness].

Assuming your edge bevels are in fact meeting, the sharper the edge, the greater the durability . Most cases of blunt edges are just ones of improper alignment, as even very coarse edges can for example push cut photocopy paper or shave.

As an extreme example of a coarse finish, I have seen edges left with a 100 grit AO finish which would almost freehang shave fine hair. And could easily freehang cut coarse hair [beard]. And no this wasn't a wire edge, checked under magnification as well as through 500+ cuts through 3/8" hemp.

The only excuse for a knife being as blunt as described in the above first post would be if it was to be used as a digging tool, root cutter, scraper, etc. .

-Cliff
 
I've noticed that some makers choose to have a "show edge" on their knives when at shows- too many folks cutting themselves.
 
Rugger: This is just my opinion. The "show edge" thing is just a justification for not putting time and effort into sharpening.
I my shop, I spend almost 30 minutes and $10 of new belts to sharpen a large tactical blade.
If I wanted to, I could do it in 5 minutes, using old belts (free). And just be average.

I do not have people bleeding on my table at shows, either.
I don't deliver knives with a "wire edge" either. That's another statement that's misused on occasion-"That's just a wire edge-it won't last".

The quality of the edge that a maker delivers is determined by the maker.
The quality of edge that a customer will accept is determined by the customer.

Since I began using the term "scary sharp" to describe my edges almost 5 years ago, it has become very popular with other makers. Unfortunately, it is overused.

Stay Sharp,

RJ Martin
 
rj martin :

I spend almost 30 minutes and $10 of new belts to sharpen a large tactical blade.
If I wanted to, I could do it in 5 minutes, using old belts (free). And just be average.
Click to expand...

I was always of the opinion that fresh belts would give a better edge simply because the abrasive would cut cleaner. However, I never actually looked at it in detail. Do you get better initial sharpness and thus cutting ability out of the new belts, or is it a question of durabilty or edge retention, or all three? How much of a gain are we talking about here - ballpark?

I don't deliver knives with a "wire edge" either. That's another statement that's misused on occasion-"That's just a wire edge-it won't last"
Click to expand...

This is one of the big myths about edges, that high levels of sharpness implies a low level of durability as it indicates a wire edge that fails immediately in use. It is propogated quite simply to allow the promotion of lower performance edges as they are faster and cheaper to grind.

-Cliff
 
There is nothing worse IMO than a custom knife that is not truly sharp. I have even had some very well known maker's ask me after I received the knife, "sharp enough for ya?" Well, no!

I agree that the term "scary sharp" is overused. While I don't own any of RJ's knives, I have seen a couple and they are indeed truly sharp. Hair shaving may be sharp, but it sure isn't "scary sharp". I pretty much reserve this for the case when you attempt to pop a hair or two and only the slightest pressure on the skin results in a breaking of the skin. And yes, you will always have the idiot running his thumb across the edge HARD, and then proclaiming that it could be sharper :rolleyes:

Ron, you can certainly get them sharp as well. My MAU has one of the most awe inspiring edges I have seen and my mini-aikuchi is no slouch either. BTW, I want that 7" CF like a razor. :D

I believe that all knives should be delivered with a nice, polished, razor edge regardless of the grind, bevels or intended use. The simple fact is that a lot of these knives will never see the use they were designed for. They will instead be handled and admired and there is nothing worse than explaining why your beautiful $500 knife has an edge that is less than perfect.
 
Cliff: I probably can't answer your question quantitatively like I suspect you'd prefer. But, think of it this way-the edge is the thinnest part of the blade, the easiest to stress mechanically and thermally during formation, and the WHOLE rest of the knife exists merely to provide an ergonomic support for it. The edge is the ultimate goal of the whole knife, isn't it?
Now-If you've spent hours on heat treat, grinding, handle shaping, etc., why would you trust anything but a new belt to form the edge?

The finest quality belts found in my shop are used for sharpening. They have a life of perhaps 1 hour when used for grinding bevels-removing lots of metal. In sharpening, they see perhaps 5-10 minutes of use before being retired.
The super tough/super hard alloys (3V, S30V, etc) will still remain ductile at high hardness levels. So, in sharpening them, if you put even moderate pressure against the edge bevel, the burr is going to move out of the way as it is formed and remain thick. When you remove it, you've got substantially less than the sharpest edge possible. We are all conditioned to believe that, once the burr appears, the edge is as fine as possible. Wrong! I have polished the initial burr off of 3V blades and the resulting edge would not shave hairs, much less pop individual ones
And, let's not forget about heat. Regardless of what anyone says, the interface of the belt and blade is HOT! New belts minimize that.
Now, before I turn this into a dissertation and am perceived of being a snob (which I probably am...) I will make just one more point.
Consider micro serrations and the actual finish of the edge. Do you want these micro serrations to be made by dull grains rubbing and smearing the metal (which weakens it), or sharp grains cutting cleanly?

I recently received a field test of the PATHFINDER knife I make for Les Robertson's VANGUARD series. I'm going to include it, unedited, in my next website update. Basically, after several hours of chopping thru large vines and 6-8" trees, the edge was reported to be unaffected. I believe the words were "No evidence of use was found on the edge". This is a big 3V chopper with a .060 thick edge that is delivered "scary sharp". Now, I'm sure that If I could examine the edge, I'd be able to detect some sign of use. But, you get the point.
I'm absolutely sold on using new belts for sharpening.

Stay Sharp,

RJ Martin
 
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