Custom Hunter with ZDP-189

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nickcarr

Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
25
Hi Everyone,

Can I get a referral to a custom knife maker that can make something similar to a Bob Lay Hunter knife (fixed blade at 8-9" OAL) but using ZDP-189 steel (if that's possible.)


Thanks
-Nick
 
I don't know of any custom makers using (or have access to) ZDP-189. I know Phil Wilson got a piece a while back, but I don't know if he has any more or if he would be interested in making one for you. It wouldn't hurt to contact him.
 
Tom Krein is making me one now. Give him a shout - he's a heckova good guy too.
Bruce
 
There are a few excellent custom knifemakers with access to ZDP-189 that I know of, but the only one of them that is taking orders, to my knowledge, is Tom Krein. Get in touch with him, he's a real stand-up guy, and I'd imagine that he can make something along the lines of what you are looking for. Expect to pay quite a bit more for something made of ZDP-189, though; it's not a cheap or easy steel to obtain for custom knifemakers outside of Japan.
 
ZDP-189 is a 3 part laminated steel made by Hitachie in Japan. The outer layers are ATS-34 and the inner layer is a super duper HSS carbon steel. I have some of the stuff but I have yet to make a knife out of it.

Rockstead in Japen use it in some of their folders and Spyderco has used it too.

It costs a fortune by the time you get it flown in and through customs. It's more expensive than damascus.
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
ZDP-189 is a 3 part laminated steel made by Hitachie in Japan. The outer layers are ATS-34 and the inner layer is a super duper HSS carbon steel. I have some of the stuff but I have yet to make a knife out of it.

It costs a fortune by the time you get it flown in and through customs. It's more expensive than damascus.
Click to expand...

This is not entirely true, Kevin. ZD-189 is MOSTLY only available in a laminate form, but Spyderco has gotten solid pieces of it, and when worked out against, say, stainless damascus from Devin Thomas or Mike Norris, it seemed to be less expensive.

There is a forumite named Vassily (nozh2000, or something like that) who posted the formula, and pertinent information for ZDP-189. My personal experience has been that it stains/pits if not immediately wiped down after kitchen use(I have a William Henry).

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
ZDP-189 is a 3 part laminated steel made by Hitachie in Japan. The outer layers are ATS-34 and the inner layer is a super duper HSS carbon steel. I have some of the stuff but I have yet to make a knife out of it.

Rockstead in Japen use it in some of their folders and Spyderco has used it too.

It costs a fortune by the time you get it flown in and through customs. It's more expensive than damascus.
Click to expand...

I think STeven is right this time, ZDP-189 is not always layered. On the Rockstead knives (those who are not made of YXR7 steel) the blade is like you say, outer layers ATS34 and ZDP-189 core. It is a brittle steel and I think this is the main reason it's used sandwitched (this and the corrosion thing).
 
Well I'm too lazy to look it up but I remember correctly the ZDP-189 refers to the laminated steel, the inner, HSS core steel is sold serately as well and has another number/name, but like I say, I'm too lazy to look it up.

I'm sure if I ordered as much as Spyderco my price would be a little better too. :-)

The inner core is certainly not brittle however! Suposedly it's one of the tougher HSS steels on the market but like most HSS steels, very succeptable to rust.

I think Rockstead may have more detailed info on their site.

Hitachie in Germany can't order the stuff at all... which is a bummer.
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
Well I'm too lazy to look it up but I remember correctly the ZDP-189 refers to the laminated steel, the inner, HSS core steel is sold serately as well and has another number/name, but like I say, I'm too lazy to look it up.
Click to expand...
ZDP-189 is the core steel, it's not called anything else. And if HSS stands for "High Speed Steel" or whatever, than that is incorrect as well. It's a very high carbon steel, with very high chromium, and some tungsten and molybdenum thrown in for good measure (probably very small amounts).
 
Mr. Hanada from Rockstead told me the core was an advanced, PM, high speed steel (which is indeed what HSS stands for in the steel world) from Hitachie ... at least I think that's what he said... but as I mentioned, I have yet to use the pieces I have on hand, so I can't say anything from firsthand experience. Heat treating doen't look like there's any big secret there.
 
Joss said:
What's ZDP-189?
Click to expand...

Joss, I'll chime in here because there's been quite a bit of discussion of the details of ZDP-189, but no one has really summarized the basics of the steel at all in this thread.

ZDP-189 is a powdered Japanese stainless "super steel" developed and manufactured by Hitachi. What makes this particular steel very attractive is the fact that it can be hardened up to very high levels (RC 65-67) while still maintaining functional toughness. It is said that under normal (not heavy) use, ZDP-189 will hold an edge better than any other stainless steel, all else equal, with the possible exception of the highly similar Cowry X.

There are some aspects in which the steel does not excel as well. Although it is tough enough to serve well in an EDC type role, it is nowhere near as tough as something like S30V or CPM 3V, which is why it is commonly found in a laminated form. If you use it hard, it may chip out. Also, even though it is classified as a stainless steel, it is nowhere near the level of, say, S90V, in corrosion resistance. I would estimate that its corrosion resistance is around the level of that of VG-10.

ZDP-189 is not easy to obtain, but several American custom knifemakers have been able to obtain it and use it in a few of their pieces. Hitachi also has attempted to keep the heat treat schedule under wraps, but it's definitely gotten out. I think the complete composition of the steel is still a secret, though a few of the ingredients (such as 3% carbon and 20% Chromium) were made public knowledge by the company.
 
commodorewheeler said:
Joss, I'll chime in here because there's been quite a bit of discussion of the details of ZDP-189, but no one has really summarized the basics of the steel at all in this thread.

ZDP-189 is a powdered Japanese stainless "super steel" developed and manufactured by Hitachi. What makes this particular steel very attractive is the fact that it can be hardened up to very high levels (RC 65-67) while still maintaining functional toughness. It is said that under normal (not heavy) use, ZDP-189 will hold an edge better than any other stainless steel, all else equal, with the possible exception of the highly similar Cowry X.

There are some aspects in which the steel does not excel as well. Although it is tough enough to serve well in an EDC type role, it is nowhere near as tough as something like S30V or CPM 3V, which is why it is commonly found in a laminated form. If you use it hard, it may chip out. Also, even though it is classified as a stainless steel, it is nowhere near the level of, say, S90V, in corrosion resistance. I would estimate that its corrosion resistance is around the level of that of VG-10.

ZDP-189 is not easy to obtain, but several American custom knifemakers have been able to obtain it and use it in a few of their pieces. Hitachi also has attempted to keep the heat treat schedule under wraps, but it's definitely gotten out. I think the complete composition of the steel is still a secret, though a few of the ingredients (such as 3% carbon and 20% Chromium) were made public knowledge by the company.
Click to expand...
That is an excellent summary.
 
Thanks for the kind words, Larrin!

Kevin Wilkins said:
ZDP-189 is a 3 part laminated steel made by Hitachie in Japan. The outer layers are ATS-34 and the inner layer is a super duper HSS carbon steel. I have some of the stuff but I have yet to make a knife out of it.
Click to expand...

ZDP-189 is the name of a single steel, not of a particular laminate combination. It is also a stainless steel, not a carbon steel. I have seen ZDP-189 laminated in ATS-34, 420J2, and stainless damascus. It is also available as a pure, non-laminated steel.

ZDP-189, while still uncommon, is starting to creep into the production knife market. There was a sprint run of Spyderco Delica folders recently that used pure, non-laminated ZDP-189 for their blades. A more recent sprint run of Spyderco Jess Horn folders used ZDP-189 laminated with 420J2. The William Henry Signity Series folders use blades with a ZDP-189 core laminated in a proprietary stainless damascus.

The steel is still very rare in the custom market, but I know there are a few fixed blades floating around made out of ZDP-189. Not sure if there are any custom folders out there using the blade steel yet, but barring any delays, I think we'll see at least 2 pieces with ZDP-189 blades by the end of this year.
 
Cool, thanks for the info! I guess if one is buying the stuff it pays to find out which ZDP-189 one will be receiving! The steel I have is the ATS-34 laminated version and that's what I had prices for.

I have a data sheet on the stuff and was told that a cryogenic cycle is important for this steel.

I'll be looking forward to seeing how the blades turn out – I will be using it for folders not fixed blades, probably make a couple of my model Ghost Dog Pup from the stuff if I ever get caught up on the orders I already have!

Maybe Hitachi will start making it more generally available and more people will use it?
 
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