Custom makers selling at shows when they are backordered.

A

azwilly

Joined
Nov 18, 1999
Messages
160
If there has already been a past thread on this, forgive me. I was wondering what everyone's opinion is on the following senario (hypothetical of course):

A well known custom bladesmith accepts deposits on future orders. He is 2-3 years behind on commitments, yet attends major knife shows and sells his custom folders to the attendees who - 1. are not on the waiting list - 2. have no deposit on file.

IMHO he should honor prior commitments before selling a single knife or refund deposits.

Well ?? Whaddya think??
 
It doesn't sound right does it? I guess you can't tell someone how to run their business? Why is that sometimes you can be in a store and they excuse themselves to help someone on the phone?

I met a maker once at a show, I really admired his work and his prices were great, he told me he prefers only to sell at shows, wasn't even that interested in taking orders, doesn't advertise, doesn't want a web site. He said he was happy to sell all he makes at shows. He just makes what he wants to make, kind of hard to argue with that.

Now, I can understand having products to sell at a show, to generate some cash now, and interest in future business. That's the way it's been done for a long time, and I guess change is hard.

[This message has been edited by PhilL (edited 02-04-2000).]
 
I don't think that is completely fair to the maker, azwilly. He has to keep a marketing presence going to keep up demand for his work. Attending shows is a very good way to do this and to get print coverage in the magazines. Knives sold at shows are not the same as custom ordered knives (or shouldn't be, I think I agree with you about that).

I know at least two custom makers who openly state that they devote some percentage of their time (a third maybe) to making knives for sale at shows or on the internet. Long waiting periods can be very frustrating. I do think makers should try to limit the amount of orders they accept if they get backed up more than several months.

I have bought All of my 'custom' knives at shows directly from the maker, and from three different internet sales sites. I like doing it that way, because I can see and handle what I am buying and get Instant gratification. But someday (soon) I will be placing orders with two different custom makers so I can get knives made to My specifications. I expect to wait some time for these knives. That the makers will continue to sell their work at shows doesn't bother me.

I have seen some annoying stories about folks placing orders for a knife and agreeing on a price. After waiting for delivery for several years, they are surprised to find that the maker now wants a lot more money (his current market value) for the knife. That doesn't seem fair or good business.

Paracelsus
 
<shrug>

I'd walk.

Is it worth the risk? It it worth the opportunity cost of tying up the money?

Only you can decide.

DaveH
 
this is standard practice in the custom knife industry...as stated above, someone with a 'name' in the knife biz needs to have his face at the shows...and needs to have knives there.....his latest and greatest, as the movers and the shakers, writers, photogs etc are all there...BUT...if you want a knife off the table...what you see is what you get...thats all...if you want a stag handled 420v with semiskinner/guthook blade thats only 1.25" thick...you better order it, and if you dont like whats on the guys table, you can probably put an order in there and have a long talk about it...another note...a lot of guys bring orders to the shows for delivery...its part of the deal....many makers stop making orders for a month before a show and concentrate on getting something ready for the show....there are also a lot of makers who dont go to shows...and another lot who dont take orders and only do shows...

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
azwilley, I am a knife maker, I have a waiting list, I make knives for Knife Shows, and I can understand your confusion. All my customers that have ordered knives are usually delivered within a reasonable time of the delivery date. Some that have ordered folders have been waiting over a year. I don't make very many folders very often. The ones that ordered folders understand the time period. I think that if a maker told me it would be 2 years till I get the knife, I would have the choice of cancelling or waiting. I may inquire about 3 months before it was to be ready to find out if it was on schedule. A price quoted should be the price charged no matter the popularity of the product or current prices. A deal is a deal. I have one knife made that isn't needed for a birthday until May. I have the customers permission to show and sell it before hand if I will have time to make another before she needs it.
Custom knife shows are also places where the knife maker tries to win awards to show their proficency at the trade so that their product will increase in value. I believe that I owe it to all my customeres to make my knives more valuable and create a greater demand for them. About four years ago I set a goal of one day becoming a Mastersmith. It is still my goal and I am still learning. At that time, the knives I made 10 years ago will become more valuable to their owners. I am not for misleading customers about the delivery date and I think most knife makers will usually have them done a little before the del. date.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
I understand the frustration. I don't take deposits and I'm a little over 2 years behind.

Basically 10 hours a day x 5 + days a week working on orders. All the rest of the time is my free time.

I make knives for the shows in my free time (nights and weekends). I just do 2 shows a year because of this.

As already been stated, I have to make a presence at a few shows a year. Only solution I've ever come up with. May suck, but that's the way it is.

 
I think I would be more concerned about the maker's committment to his stated delivery schedule.

If a maker tells me he has a 10-12 month wait, and I accept that wait, then I'm less concerned with what else he does in the meantime, as long as I get my knife within the stated delivery estimate.

On the other hand, if he says 10-12 months, and it's been 15 and counting, and I'm hearing that a number of people have been getting these great knives from that same maker at a half dozen shows around the US, knives that are essentially what I ordered those many moons ago, then I'll call that maker and ask for an explanation or ask for my deposit back, as that's really starting to stretch my definition of what's fulfilling customer committment and what isn't.

I hope this makes sense.

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Don LeHue

Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings...they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
 
For what it's worth, I don't begrudge a maker the time they spend making knives for shows. They are entitled to promote their businesses and I imagine that most take that into account when giving out estimated delivery times. For myself, speaking as someone with a knife on order from Mr. Kirk, I LIKE the idea of him displaying and selling his knives at shows. He's correct that his efforts in creating more demand for his knives will add value to the one that I will receive. Sounds like a good thing to me.
smile.gif


P.S. Ray, I didn't know you made folders. Please, tell us about this...

[This message has been edited by Knave (edited 02-05-2000).]
 
I can remember thinking this same question, but at the present time I find myself in a similar situation. I have the aspect of being full time military, and subject to drop everything at a moment's notice and head for some remote corner of the world for who knows how long.(Remember how that was Kit?) I make it a point to let my customers know of this when they order from me. I also work in my shop from the stand point of making a knife for an order, and one for a show (if there is a show approaching) All the others are correct, no matter how big your name might be, if your face is not out there in the public, whether that be in the magazines or at shows, your quickly forgotten. What I consider a special circumstance exists with me at the present time, in that I will test for my ABS Mastersmith this June at the Blade show, and I am spending every available moment working on the blades that will either make me or break me, (which means some orders are being pushed back) But......should I be lucky enough to pass, I can assure you that the prices I have quoted customers on their orders will not increase, no matter how long it takes to get it completed. It can be a strange business, and there are no set ways to judge any maker's reasons for operating in the manner that he/she does. Each must apply thier own ethics, while ensuring that bread is on the table, and the future of thier business is secure.

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"
http://www.caffreyknives.com
 
I understand the frustration of having a knife on order, waiting a long time, and then seeing the same maker selling knives at a show. But I also understand the need for the maker to have something on hand to offer at shows. If the time estimate is reasonably well honoured, I assume the show schedule is one of the factors taken into account and I don't mind. Usually, I'll ask what if anything is going to be made available at the show and I might buy it myself.
I'm sure the dealers are a bigger factor.
 
I don't really care what the maker does with his products or time as long as he honors his commitment to me. If I signed up to a five year wait then so be it. It is a question of mutual respect. I respect how he chooses to run his business, and he respects his commitment to me.

 
Also what needs to be considered here is that some shows, Guild/Blade etc require the makers to attend so many shows. They can skip some years but have to attend others to continue to receive there current table or place in the show. It's hard for a maker to attend a show with no knives to sell. Also the expense of rooms, airline tickets, food and gas to attend the show. You need to at least break even or make a few bucks for the effort or it wouldn't be worth it. Kind of a double edged sword so to speak!
wink.gif
 
I am one of those makers who carry a lot of knives to shows. The people who know me will tell you I make a lot of knives. I have a big family and this is our sole support.
I make knives in batches. I have to balance my handmades with my customs so that I always have an inventory on hand. I may wok a few days on 6 lockbacks and spend one day on 1 custom order.
When my customers order they are given an estimated delivery time. And when there are delays I try to communicate with them as often as possible. I don't think any of them expect me to work on nothing but their knife until it's done.
I don't know of a single maker (part-time or full-time) who diligently starts on a custom order the day it is ordered and does nothing else until its completed.
Some customers only have to wait a couple of weeks and some longer. It depends on the order.
If a customer wanted a knife "right away" it would cost an awful lot for me to do nothing but that order.
And other than the Internet - for many of us the shows are the only way we can get our faces and our knives out there. Advertising costs a pretty penny.
I have even had some of my customer's knives at shows. Sometimes the customer is meeting me there to pick it up and sometimes they have allowed me to hang on to it to show off at a show before I ship it.
I guess if there was a particular maker that you were upset with the best thing would be to talk to that maker.


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Gene Osborn
Center Cross Metal Works
I Carry My Crosses for Christ to Give any Glory to God.
 
Another thing you all need to concider to is that often times maker's have knives that just havent been one's that have sold and also if they only make Order's and dont make anything new to re up their talent as viewed by the customer they have a tendancy to loose their old customer's interest if everything you make look's like the same old stuff repete busness doesn't happen very often and somthing else you might concider is your working on an order and you have to wait on supply's to finish it do you quit and wait till you get more or do you work on somthing else till the supply's come in

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TbarK Custom Knives http://vip.hpnc.com/~tbark Therefore I erge you brother's in view of God's Mercy to offer your body's as living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship Romans 12-1

[This message has been edited by tbark (edited 02-05-2000).]
 
Thanks for the great responses, I agree with most of the reasoning here and perhaps the main thread to it all is communication. Both ways.. If commitments are made and time frames change then that should be adequately communicated. Generally, I like the no deposit idea because if a maker is 2 years behind, his work is very much in demand. So when he calls you to say your knife is ready and you don't have the money - I'm sure the knife will have another willing buyer. Agian thanks for the opinions!
smile.gif
bill
 
bill, you wrote,
" I'm sure the knife will have another willing buyer."

Unless you have really bad taste in knives.
wink.gif
 
azwilly,

instead of ordering, wait until a show and buy the knife there...well, thats what i do. But then again i am not a very patient person when it comes to buying knives(i.e. I always get next day air).

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And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold the great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...And His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
 

(I've withdrawn my question. It didn't fit the thread.)
smile.gif




[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 02-06-2000).]
 
Hi Guys...

Being an artist first and formost,, I've run into the same problem at shows...

Some of my pieces can take 2-3 months,,some have taken up to six months to complete.

I've met customers at shows who have standing orders and have wondered the same thing.

I tell them pretty much what all the bladesmiths here have been saying... It's my bread and butter.

If I don't do shows I run the risk of missing the next important contact. Each person who passes by my both and stops gets a card. They are potential customers and my future rests on my being at the show or gallery and in the public eye, having stock so people can see my work first hand...

I also understand the frustration,,but not being a maker of knives,,or art for that matter you don't see our side of the entire picture.. The wait is hard I know....I've been there,,and I'll be there again...

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
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