custom makers using pre-ground blades???

RMLamey

RMLamey

Joined
Nov 13, 1998
Messages
2,598
With the recent passing of Bob Engnath (Blades n Stuff), the question of makers using pre ground blades came to mind. After talking to several knowledgable knife collectors, i found out that a number of custom makers were allegedly using Bobs pre ground blades. Some of these makers charge very big prices and are very well known, but do not openly disclose the fact they were using pre ground blades, and they are members of the Knifemakers Guild.

I do not understand if all of this was indeed true and fairly common knowledge among the knifemaking "crowd", how the makers could stay in good standing with the Guild?

In my opinion if you didnt grind the blade, you didnt make the knife.

I dont mean any disrespect to the late Bob Engnath or his family- As a matter of fact i consider his scrimshaw to be among the best on the planet. His knives were also very nice. He was full of knowledge and willing to share it.... all of it.

His web site is still the best for the beginning knifemaker.

My question is with the proffesional ethics of those "custom" makers using pre ground blades and not disclosing the fact.
 
RM Laney; I think the key word in your post is 'allegedly.' I haven't heard a whisper about a custom knife maker using pre-ground blades. I certainly know several who definitely do NOT use pre-ground blades.

Consider the way the moderator of this forum treated the products of a well known maker who was found to NOT be grinding his own blades. Further consider the action of the Knife Guild in prohibiting this maker from displaying his wares.

I would say your position is not credible.

I would like to see some hard evidence to support your claims. Indeed, were I you, I would have not made such claims based on heresay and allegations. I would have had some hard facts in hand before I accused knifesmiths of such deception.

I urge you to reconsider your position; it seems to me to be dangerously close to libel.

If you have evidence, however, please submit it for consideration.

Regards, Walt Welch
 
A couple or three years ago, I ran a one-time ad in Knives Illustrated, where I mentioned that the blades for the knives I make were ground by Bob Engnath. One result was the sale of a couple of dozen knives to a Japanese collector who was collecting Engnaths. I tell people when Bob did the hot and grimy work, to my design or his design, and I did the obsessive detail work.

Bob told me a couple of times that there were makers who bought his blades, whom he wouldn't identify as long as their checks didn't bounce. They didn't bounce, and he didn't identify them. In a lifetime total of nearly 100,000 semi-finished blades, it would be no surprise if at least a thousand or so ended up sold by makers who didn't tell. There are probably people who ground a lot of their own blades, and farmed out others to Bob, possibly the same models. I'm sure there are other knives out there where another maker, or an apprentice for that matter, did some important part of the work. Bob Engnath is not the only maker who has ground blades for other makers, though nobody else did it on his scale. He will be missed.

In any case, the person who signs and sells the knife is the one who had ultimate creative control. If the maker started with a rough bare blade that sold at retail for $30, and ended up with a product worth $150 or better, who's to say that he shouldn't sell it under his own name, and not go into its history unless asked?

If you are buying a knife based on the reputation of the maker, as opposed to the merits of the knife as you examine it closely, non-disclosure would matter more, and if the maker actually claims sole authorship then shame on him for using an Engnath blade or anyone else's work either.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 
OK, Let me get something striaght- I dont want to start some sort of "pen war",this is much to good a forum for "junk" like that.

My original and sustained position is simply this- *IF a "custom" knifemaker is using pre-ground blades, then it should be disclosed as such, especially to the potential customer*

I am not and was not originally suggesting that there is a large percentage of makers that were doing this,but i think one custom maker doing this would be too many.

I also know many, many, custom makers in the Guild(hope to someday join) and ABS(i am a member), and many that arent in either that are all up standing, ethical and honorable bussiness men.

I think in all, that custom knife makers are very credible, proffesional and ethical in there dealings with there customers.

In my opinion, the custom knife market is a shinning example of what "unregulated" bussiness should and could be.

I applaud the Guild for taking a stand on the issue that you mentioned, they are truly well run, respectable, and honorable.

Again, i wont get into "hard evidence" or offer up any of the makers in question, becuase it was, and still is "alleged".
IF i had "hard evidence" and did in fact "offer it" as you suggest i do, Mr Welch, AT THAT POINT i would be libel.

Again, it was and remains "heresay".

I will state my original and sustained point(that was obviously missed) again-
*A "custom" maker using pre ground blades should disclose that fact to everyone involved with the knife*

I am immovable on this- It is my opinion, and we live in a flawed but wonderfull country that allows me to express my opinion openly and freely, as you do yours Mr. Welch.

(I DO NOT ask you to reconsider your position, becuase i respect the opinion and position of others)

Thanks, RMLamey (Matt)

 
Ok Matt and Walt here is what you really both want to know.

Unfortunatley, there are makers who up until recently used Bob's blades. Yes you would know the names immediately, Yes they are voting members in the Guild.

In an interview in Blade Magazine several years ago, even Bob admitted that there were some very well known knifemakers who used his blades.

Will people come forward with the names? No. Why, well mostly its because living in the Politicall Correct world we do know, it is fashionable to hold hands and sing songs.

Walt is correct, liable could be involved. Of course in any court case this would mean opening up Bob Egnaths bank account receipts and his shipping records. There are more than a few makers shuddering at that thought.
Ever wonder how some of those makers could turn out "SO MANY KNIVES".

Unfortunatley, there are more "skeletons" out there. You will be amazed at some of the world reknown names that these skeletons will point to.

Egnath made over 100,000 blades, it is possible that one or two found their way to custom knifemakers.

Liable and Slander are very difficult to prove in the custom knife business as many times it is just one person's opinion. I have received letters from more than one custom knifemakers (or phone calls) telling me there were considering legal action. Thinking this would quite me. The last was from an incredibly well known maker, my attorney mailed our response December 17th 1997, still havent heard back from him. Care to guess why that is! I think there were a few facts this maker neglected to tell his lawyer that we informed him of in the letter from my attorney! Once his attorney was informed of this new infomation, all threats of legal action stopped!

The custom knife world is a very small place. Some one of note sneezes on the east coast, within "seconds" someone on the west coast says "God bless you".

I am one of the fortunate few who get to live, eat and breath custom knives. Unfortunately, I am here to tell you 10% of the custom makers are people you should probably consider not doing business with. These reasons are numerous. However, this 10% is consistent with any other business in the world.

I will say this, that most of the custom knifemakers I have met are among the nicest, most honest, hard working people you would ever want to meet. Then there is the 10%.

Some of you already have in your head who some of these makers are. Guess what, your right. You know what else, only a few of you are thinking about the same makers!

Matt and Walt your both right (how about that for PC). But for different reasons. I know both of you, you are both honorable men and both want the same things for custom knives. Remember, many avenues can lead to the same location!

I do encourage all of you if you have a problem with the a maker in the Guild contact them. They want that maker gone as bad (if not more so) than you do.

Les
 
I haven't even started studying for a law degree (yet!), but it seems to me that a libel suit needs two things:

1) FALSE information that hurts a specific person's or business's income, and

2) SomeONE needs to be listed in that false information in order for them to be hurt.

It appears that Matt did not list false information, as we have more proof to say that somewhere, concerning someone, he is correct, and, most importantly, he didn't name anyone!
Your posts, Dr. Welch, are usually very informative and thoughtfully written, but I can't imagine that you really think Matt even came close to Libel. I could be wrong, but I think he would have to take much more extreme measures to even get himself into a court, let alone convicted.

I am sure that I have written many things that could be considered much more libelous that what was written above. Personally, I hope that this kind of information continues to be passed on, on this information highway, because otherwise, many would still think that it is safe to send your full payment to a maker before the knife is done, and that Sebenzas are still custom folders. I have learned a lot from the posts on these forums, many many of which could be considered libelous in some stretch of the law.

respectfully,
thaddeus


 
It actually never ocurred to me to do anything other than disclose that Bob Engnath ground my blades. After all, anybody who had seen his catalog would recognize certain standard patterns, and he was a whole lot better known in the trade than I was, so saying I used his blades was saying I was offering good quality steel.

There are a number of makers who grind their own blades now, and do it very well, who started with Engnath blades. Scott Slobodian comes to mind, among samurai sword makers.

By the time Bob died, it has been a few years since he had actually finished a knife. He could make more money selling hard-edge Japanese style blades to other makers than he could doing the grinding and the polishing and the woodwork too. For a few Knifemakers' Guild shows, he would bring a table full of very simple and utilitarian knives, with a minimum of hand work and finishing, that would be the least expensive knives in the room. Then, for a couple of Guild shows, he went strictly as a supplier. I beleive that the last time he went to one, in Las Vegas in 1997, he went as a tourist. He was so busy grinding out blades that he didn't have time to prepare for the show as an exhibitor.

Perhaps he was trying to keep up with one of those CNC monster grinding machines that the factories use. Like John Henry versus the steam drill. Next time you see a meteor shower, imagine that he's teaching Vulcan the art of stock removal.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 
Thad..
Your definitions were correct, however we all know that any negative or unfavorable statement one could make could be grounds for a libel/slander suit...then it must be proven in court, either to a jury's or judge's satisfaction.Further, if the person who sued for libel is actually guilty of whatever was said, that person can still tie it all up in court and financially drain his/her opponent. Therefore, the mere threat or potential of a suit tends to keep people quiet; even if that person speaks the truth.

Walt...being accused or sued for libel doesn't mean it was actually committed...it must be proven


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"quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
~Ðøñå~


 
Matt; first of all, I am in total agreement with you about a custom maker disclosing if another person ground the blade.

What concerned me about your post was that serious allegations were being made by you, without evidence. If, as in your later post, you had evidence and came forth with it, you would certainly NOT be guilty of libel. Libel requires, as Thad pointed out, you have to write something *false* about someone, and that person has to suffer some sort of loss.

I was certain that the Guild more closely monitored aspects of knifemaking such as you brought up, and was apalled to learn from James that there are indeed some custom makers who apparently did not inform their buyers of the fact that the blade was ground by someone else.

It was my faith in the Guild that made me come down so hard on you. I thought you were totally incorrect; as it turns out, you were not. I apologize for any offense. In fact, I applaud the fact that you brought this up.

I think that the Guild should pay more attention to disclosure of its' members. At the very least.

Matt; again, I apologize if I offended you.

Thank you for your consideration, Walt
 
Thanks for the reply, all. Mr Welch- you dont owe me an apology (i appreciate your original response, it got the ball rolling).
I hold no disdain for you or anyone that makes a post or has an opinion different than my own.

Again, on the issue of libel- What i originally passed on was only hearsay, it was only alleged and i wanted to find out what others had heard, if anything on the subject. So enough about that already, go to a "law" forum to vent your knowledge of the "law".

Why, after reading Les's response, did i feel like a school kid who was just pulled out of a fist fight on the playground! ;-)

Thanks for some of the clarification, Les.

I am glad that my original point was cleared-
*disclosure should be expected*

Think about this one- Some of the Japanese Swordmasters only forge and rough finish the blades, then the blades go to a Master polisher, then the tsuba is made by someone else, then it is handled by yet another, sheath another etc....
*BUT all of this is known by the customer, so in my opinion it is O.K.*

Actually it is understandable, each person that is the BEST in that area of swordmaking does his job on the sword, resulting in a much finer final product.

Thanks, RMLamey.


 
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