Custom Makers & Working Knives

B

budrichard

Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
625
I read the Loveless article in Blade magazine with interest , especially the part about wanting to get rid of making double grind knives and get back to making using knives. Bob Dozier also states on his web page that he would rather spend his time making working knives rather a lot of hours polishing blades. Are we seeing a trend here or just burnout on a few top makers? I know Corbet Sigman makes his Working and Utility hunters now and seems to derive interest in thier actual use.I see some of the "ART" knives being made today and seriously do not consider them as something I would purchase. I do have a folder on order with Damascus and MOP but it will be nowhere as ornate as some of the knives I see lately.
 
I have not yet read that article, but did it really say that double ground knives are not suitable for Working Knives? I'm confused. Chisel ground knives are great for some things. But for good control and general utility, a double ground knife is better. [For those who don't know, chisel ground is beveled only on one side, the other being flat. Double ground knives have bevels on both sides].

Plenty of makers make very good working knives, and Want their customers to use them. They know that not all of the knives they make will be used, but makers will give special consideration to customers who express a lot of interest in using their knives. Some do produce expensive 'art' knives. But my favorite knives are both Art and Useable.

Most of the ABS mastersmiths make simple user knives in plain carbon steels. Ed Caffrey is selling fantastic little fixed blades in triple tempered carbon steel for $100. Kit Carson designs all of his knives to be used. Darrel Ralph uses color and form to design his knives, but knives like the Apogee are supposed to be working knives. Tim Herman has not had a knife actually used in 20 years, so he is making me a plain version of his normally pricey sliver model. I'm going to get a real kick out of carrying and using a Herman knife. Delta Z is going to be producing a production line of Tim's sliver design, so maybe sometime next year lots of people can afford of piece of Tim's mind.

Anyway, there will always be art knives. And there will always be user knives. There are trends in knifemaking. If we are seeing a trend towards using knives, that is wonderful. However, the tactical folder genre is moving uspcale with the move towards natural handle materials and beautiful steels. These are still first and foremost knives that are meant to be used.

Using knives is how they are best appreciated. Buying knives to use them as investment vehicles seems foolish to me. But I do not actually cut things with some of my knives. I do admire them as Art that I do not want to blemish, mar, lose, and destroy. But part of the reason I bought these knives is because I believe they would make Fanastic using knives.

Everyone has their own idea of a price for knives that makes them seem too expensive to use, or maybe just too precious. I do know that the price of knives that I actually carry has moved for less than two hundred dollars to about $600. That is a big jump. I appreciate more costly and 'artsy' knives. I will certainly be buying some of those in the future. But I will also continue to collect 'user' knives as Art. The problem is that you can only carry and use so many knives.
smile.gif


Paracelsus, wondering around the universe

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 11-04-2000).]
 
I appreciate extreme craftsmanship, but my priorities are greatly weighted towards knives that work really well as opposed to god-like perfection in fit and finish. But then, I am the type who gets most of their enjoyment out of using knives, and I wouldn't buy anything that I wouldn't use.

To me, an art knife is just that, art.
 
Bud,

While Bob Loveless has most certainly been an influence in the custom knife market. His influence is waining. Other than his designs still being utilized by makers around the world.

I didnt read the artilce either, but I would suspect he is talking about a double hollow grind. Top and bottom and both sides. Not switching from a double grind to a chisel grind.

I was taught starting in the cub scouts all the way to this day. Use the right tool for the right job. If you really feel that a $10 knife will do the job for you. Then you should spend the $10.00.

When I was a Rifle Platoon Leader in the 101st, I thought there was a good chance that my knives would be put to extreme tests, perhaps the ultimate test (to either save my life or take someone else's).

Consequently, I went through a lot of knives. The knife I decided to use in 1986 cost $475.00. That same knife today in D-2 will cost you almost $900 and you get to wait 2 years for it.

For me, I wanted the very best of everything I could get. If the Army would have let me get rid of tha POS M-16 I would have gladly bought my own rifle.

I knew I would be, and was put into some very extreme conditions. As the knives I carried were going to be put to the test on a daily basis. I did not want, as I say many other do. That is let out a string of curse words and then chuck that worthless piece of crap they used to call a knife deep into the woods.

So I spent the money on what I thought to be the best I could get. I saw many soldiers go through 6-8 factory knives in a year. I always thought to myself you know if they took the money they spent for those knives and cut back a little on the beer, they could have bought a really good custom knife.

As Para has brought up, he likes to collect working grade knives and enjoy them for the art that is in them. I appreciate that as well.

While I agree that Doziers working knives aroud the $110 price range are excellent working knives. The same can be said for Greco, Livesay, Black Cloud, and many others working under the $125.00 mark.

If these knives meet your requirements, then this is what you should buy.

If you like the style of these knives, but like to see a little more refinement in the lines, fit and finish. Then look to other makers. Another suggestino would be to ask the aforementioned makers produce a "upscale" version of that working knife.

Do your homework, identify what is the main objective or objectives of the knife you are going to by. This will help you and/or the maker, the most optimum steel, finish and handle material for the knife. These objectives may even determine some design elements in the knife. Once you agree, then have the knife made. If you were honest with your objectives, the knife should more than meet your needs.

Now, comes the other determining factor for many. The Price (notice I did not say the cost, as they are two different things). For many the price will be to high for them. At this point, you will now have to rethink your objectives until you diluted your knife enough to meet the price you want to pay.

This is where the cost comes into play. Even though you have diluted the knife, you will still have in your head that the knife will perform equal to the more expensive knife and meet your goals, even though you and the maker agreed it was not the knife you had originally wanted.

So now you take it out and use it. You grow irrited because it doesnt cut as long, it's to hard to resharpen, it doesn't take an edge well, it oxidizes quicker than you thought, the finish isnt as nice, etc.

On top of that while using the knife (for a purpose the knife was not intended to do), the edge chips or the tip breaks off, or worse the blade breaks.

Here is your first initiation to cost. So far the knife has cost you what the price was. Also, the fact you no longer have a working knife, you now have to get another one, you more than likely will have to wait for it and you will have to pay the "price" again.

I ask this question all the time, and usually get a laugh in response to it. Exactly how much will you pay for a sub-standard knife?

All of us have bought them. I am always curious how much someone will waste on a sub standard knife in order to lower the "price".

Guys, identify the objectives for the knife, find a maker you are comfortable with and spend the money it takes to get what you want. Trust me you will be much happier that you did. Not to mention that warm fuzzy feeling you will get when you give that knife to one of your Grandchildren. That is of course if our Grandchildren can have knives.



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Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 

I have always wanted some one to use the knife that was purchased from me. Besides the testing that I do, other people using them for their purposes helps me to continually increase the quality and design of the working knives I make. The steel and the temper will never be compromised but will be adjusted to the particular use of the knife. I too, have started making a wirk knife to be used for every thing a knife can be used for. Twelve years ago I didn't know the far reaching qualities of a custom knife, now I do.
Hopefully there will be more knife makers that will start to produce a working knife so that the choices will be greater for the general public.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
I picked up a Raker knife at the Blade School last weekend. A nice neck knife with stag. Ray is one of the guys that believe that if it will not cut, it will not leave his shop.
Most of the ABS makers that I know of do make useing grade knives, Thats what pays the bills. High end knives do sell but users sell better than 10 to 1 over them.

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old pete
 
Nothing beats a great design by a great maker, with absolute excellence in workmanship, but made out of durable materials. That's why my primary carry knives are Darrel Ralph Apogee and EDC folders.

I draw the line on art, not based on cost so much as durability. If using the knife would destroy half of its value, or destroy the materials, or even the finish, then it would be a shame to use it. That's what I like about the Ralph folders, they are pretty, and they are pretty tough. If you use 'em hard, you can send them back to Darrel, he buffs 'em, anodizes 'em, and sends 'em back good as new.
 
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