Custom traditional knife makers that use super steel?

rockgolfer

rockgolfer

Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
4,560
Just curious if anyone knows of any custom makers that use say M4, S90v or any of the other newer steels in a multi-blade slipjoint?
 
Wilfred Works uses 440V (S60V). It is the main reason I am eyeing a R. Bose shadow trapper in jigged bone. I would like to see more PM steels used in slipjoints, especially Bohlers M390 and Carpenters CTS XHP.


Kris
 
Jerry Halfrich has worked quite a bit with M4 (and built blades for cutting competitions) though his steel of choice is CPM-154.

Ken Erickson has worked with CPM-D2 which is an excellent steel as well.

I have a Tony Bose "Back Pocket" with S60V (440V). Up until fairly recently, Tony used to say this was his favorite steel. I don't know if he still feels the same way at the moment.
 
Last edited:
Kris, XHP is probably my favorite stainless steel. It gets absolutely razor sharp, holds a working edge for a very long time and is easy to sharpen(for me anyway). Have not used M390 but have heard nothing but great things. Unfortunately something from Wilfred Works is not feasible for me at this time.

Elliott, I will do a search on Mr. Halfrich's work and take a look. I love M4 and have for awhile now. It is super tough and holds an edge for very long. It is a little tougher to sharpen but that strength makes it worth it. Thanks for the info Gents, maybe more makers will start toying around with these steels.
 
strictly as a user, i don't think all powder metals are suitable for slipjoints. a slipjoint blade has to be ground very thin and be resistant to chipping. and being a mechanical set-up (banging against a spring) it has to be modestly hard and very tough.

i reckon top-of-the line ingot stainless steels like 154cm and vg-10, 440c, and even 420HC would be best.
 
Mr. Rearden, I noticed M4 was not on your list. It is very tough per my experience and charts put out by Crucible Steel. It also excels at high hardness for edge retention and sacrifices little in toughness(all based on my experience). Is it a problem with making it thin? Just trying to understand why such a great steel is not suitable for a more traditional knife? What makes powder steels wrong for this more mechanical set-up?
 
When Sal Glesser was developing the UK Penknife, he ran into a problem with the carbides in the S30V causing premature wear on the spring, even with the bearing surfaces mirror polished. He ended up using blade steel for the spring as well, and the heat treat for that part was trickier than the blade's. M4 has as much vanadium as S30V, with tungsten and molybdenum thrown in as well, giving it an even larger volume of hard carbides. A slipjoint's backspring applies a lot more pressure on the blade than most locking mechanisms, so that may be at least one of the concerns involved. Having an expensive, hand fitted, pinned construction slipjoit that you have to rebuild every few years would be bad for the customer and maker both.
 
The way I want to interpret your post is that with experimentation, one could make this work? I did note I was looking for a custom maker. It seems playing with heat treat could yield positive results. Why not use the same steel for the spring? I understand its not easy but fully believe it is worthy of someones time to figure out. I can imagine a two bladed jack knife with an M4 main blade for general use and an s90v little slicer. I can not be the only one to dream of something like this can I?
 
my own fear with super steels they might not have enough yield and toughness when ground into a thin blade and subjected to hard use (and i do put my slippies to hard use.) i actually experimented. an s30v buck vantage (hair-splitting sharp) versus a case chrome vanadium stockman ('stock' edge) for whittling hardwood. the s30v stayed sharp longer BUT the case cut through easier. why? simply because the blade was very thin and slim. it bit into the wood far easier than a 'modern' with a 3mm spine thickness. whittling hard wood with a thick blade will tire you out.

as far as i'm concerned case cv is every bit a super steel as s30v.
 
I'm pretty sure CPM M4 has the toughness and attainable hardness to make a killer thin blade. I'm more sure that it's a pain in the butt to grind. It may even be flexible enough at a lower hardness to make a useable spring. S90V little slicer I'm less sure of. That's a large volume of large, very hard carbides to be trying to grind thin. Not many makers are willing to work with it. Phil Wilson does, and he's good with it, but I don't think he does traditional folders.
 
One way to get around the spring problem is to use a good spring steel, and spot weld a small piece of the blade steel into it at the point of contact with the blade tang. That way you would have a good spring that will have the right wear properties, too.
 
Aren't circular saws made out of M4? Pretty tough and some aren't that thick. Maybe 2mm?
 
rockgolfer said:
The way I want to interpret your post is that with experimentation, one could make this work? I did note I was looking for a custom maker. It seems playing with heat treat could yield positive results. Why not use the same steel for the spring? I understand its not easy but fully believe it is worthy of someones time to figure out. I can imagine a two bladed jack knife with an M4 main blade for general use and an s90v little slicer. I can not be the only one to dream of something like this can I?
Click to expand...

Only if you make it worth their time. If you have enough money to throw at it, the problems can be resolved. It shouldn't take more than twenty to thirty grand.
 
A problem does exist, I have no money to throw at the fire and I have no time or proper education to take it on myself. By the time someone is making M4 steel slipjoints then perhaps the first problem will be rectified. Maybe I can change the later problems while I am at it, where did I put that $50 knife shop book? :D
 
Jerry Halfrich and I have discussed M4 on many occasions both on the phone and in person. Those of you who are familiar with his blade grinds and edges know that he's right up there with the best.

One thing Jerry has always told me from his field experience with his own knives built with M4 is that it's hell to put an edge on by hand, especially in the field. So, while it will take and hold a great edge, you'll pay the piper when it comes time to sharpen. This is why Jerry extolls the virtues of CPM-154. He finds that it strikes the best balance of both edge holding and ease of sharpening amongst the stainless steels he's worked with. (When Jerry tells you that he has a hard time putting a good edge on a knife it's time to sit up and take notice. Just sayin'.)

As far as carbon steels are concerned, he really liked the 52100 blades I sent him to play with and he's since made some blades from it. I'd love for him to try some of Don Hanson's W2 but I wasn't about to send him mine regardless of how much I love him. ;)
 
as i understand it, the 'super' characteristic of most ingot tool steels (e.g. 1095, o-1) is that in its annealed state, it's very soft and easy to grind. it's also easy to forge. but when you oil-quench it when heated to non-magnetic state, it hardens to a very brittle rc64. you then temper down to 62 or as low as 58 and then you have a very workable knife edge. stock removal for a blade like zdp 189 or m4 sounds like a nightmare.

the cost of a super-steel blade may be more due to added labor cost than anything.
 
yablanowitz said:
When Sal Glesser was developing the UK Penknife, he ran into a problem with the carbides in the S30V causing premature wear on the spring, even with the bearing surfaces mirror polished. He ended up using blade steel for the spring as well, and the heat treat for that part was trickier than the blade's. M4 has as much vanadium as S30V, with tungsten and molybdenum thrown in as well, giving it an even larger volume of hard carbides. A slipjoint's backspring applies a lot more pressure on the blade than most locking mechanisms, so that may be at least one of the concerns involved. Having an expensive, hand fitted, pinned construction slipjoit that you have to rebuild every few years would be bad for the customer and maker both.
Click to expand...

You are not suppose to polish the walk on a slipjoint spring. The oil will bead off and cause galling. Rough the walk up with 600g paper and you are good to go. If you do it right there is no problem using a supersteel blade and 154 spring, I've done it a lot. Yes, 440V is my favorite steel. I've carried and used it for years.
 
Thanks, Tony. Something else to note, the UKPK is not a conventional slipjoint, but rather a "notchjoint". The end of the spring has a rounded swell that drops into a notch on the blade tang much the way a lockbar does on a lockback, but it simply cams up with sufficient pressure rather than grabbing tight and being manually lifted to release. The system gives very good closing resistence without needing a nail-breaker spring. I thought it was rather clever, and I'd like to see it on a more conventional (traditional) knife.

Edit to add: Sal had mentioned mirror polishing the parts as one of many things he'd tried to solve the wear problem.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top