Okay ill get the obvious out of the way first and foremost being that a custom usually but not always should have a better fit and finish. One thing I have not seen discussed very much is the difference in performance. Many will say this is subjective so here is my thinking. If we take a very good production company such as strider... politics aside. Lets say we had them make a fixed blade and had someone like nathan carothers make the same exact knife from the same exact material. Same grind same geometry only difference is the maker. Will the strider be superior or will the "custom" be superior. Ill even go as far to say we can use 3v at the same hrc for the steel as both strider and nathan have worked with it for a long while. Not to pick on nathan I just think in a meadow full of sheep hes one of the foxes if you will, clever measured and innovative in his approach. Lets even say its just a smaller run for strider where they can have better quality control. Will there be a measurable difference or if we wer handed both not knowing who made what would they be indistinguishable from one another? My last question is how many makers are really pushing limits and not just settling for if its not broken dont fix it?
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custom vs production performance
- Thread starter noob93
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I think it will vary a lot. I've seen custom knives that looked very pretty and had good workmanship, but had thick grinds. But OTOH a custom maker could have nicer grinds than a factory knife. As for heat treat, some custom makers do well with their heat treats but I think a company like Spyderco has the resources to optimize some of the more complicated heat treats.
ostanley99
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Honestly, I haven't had a problem with a production knife from a solid company like Benchmade of Spyderco. If I had to pay the same price for a Gerber, I would be angry. I've heard some real horror stories about custom knife makers, so I'd deal with caution. At least when I buy a Benchmade or Spyderco, I know exactly what performance I'm shelling out for
whitty
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I think there is some truth to the fact that you pay for a name. I also think that those custom makers with really reputable names and higher prices, got that reputation for doing something really right and being able to do it repeatably. This argument could be put to the test with the steel in a production vs. midtech level with same steels in say Chris Reeve or Hinderer vs. that in a ZT or Spyderco.
I have not owned any customs from "high end" makers as my wallet is not that full and I use my knives as tools. As such I have been looking for an answer to my question and thought surely a maker would have stepped up and showed his knives superiority over a quality production knife. I mean that is supposed to be part of what we are paying for right?
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Your question doesn't appear to be genuine. The way I read your example is:
"If the custom maker is in every way identical to the production maker, which is better?".
The answe is, of course, either (a) whichever is cheaper (probably Nathan), or (b) whoever I would rather support (certainly Nathan).
If your question is genuine, allowing for actual realistic differences between the two, then I would take Nathan's work hands down, every time. He is setting a new, very high standard with CPM3V
"If the custom maker is in every way identical to the production maker, which is better?".
The answe is, of course, either (a) whichever is cheaper (probably Nathan), or (b) whoever I would rather support (certainly Nathan).
If your question is genuine, allowing for actual realistic differences between the two, then I would take Nathan's work hands down, every time. He is setting a new, very high standard with CPM3V
ostanley99
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Any and all of the above. I haven't dealt with them personally, but you can learn a lot from lurking on these forums. I've read that certain knife makers take years to make a knife and when it comes in, the knife had loose scales, uneven bevels and just not being a quality piece of cutlery
Im a bit confused where you would find my question to not be genuine. It was a reasonable question and I thought it was pretty straight forward. I did not ask If the production maker was identical to the custom maker as how could he be. I hope they really arent cloning people yet lol but really my question was simple and I agree nathan is doing well. But my question was who produces a superior blade with identical materials and the same shape and grind etc...
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Stay on point. Discuss the knives not the philosophical origins of the "question", which is better. This has been asked a lot over the years and the answer varies depending on who responds. Some makers design and build knives to actually cut things, some build knives as a way to display their skill level and to cut things. Let your wallet be your guide.
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Okay that's some clarification.
Edit: "genuine" wasn't the word I was looking for. I meant that the way you asked it excluded important points of difference, if that makes sense. Wasn't a comment on intention
Here are my thoughts:
- High quality and tight tolerances result in a higher labour/time/materials investment.
- Due to the above, higher quality leads to a higher price.
- Small run production and custom makers may be better able to produce these higher quality pieces, because large manufacturers would need to invest more due to scale of production (ie the small scale producers can be more flexible and innovative).
In the case of the example you chose, (I think) Nathan's heat treatment of the steel allows him to bring the grind angle down. This results in improved performance over and above what we have seen from other manufacturers. In effect, another manufacturer couldnt make those designs work as well. Nathan might correct me on this point.
Custom and small run makers run the full quality spectrum of excellent to awful, just like larger manufacturers. In either case it's good to do your research on what you are buying, and who you are buying it from.
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I believe my questions were quite straight forward and no offense but I see no reason why we cant get a little philosophical. If you dont like philosophical questions perhaps this is not a thread for you. I for one like a good discussion and find a bit of philosophy interesting. Just my 2 cents
Yes such was my suspicion although I do believe strider probably has quite an excellent ht as well from what iv read. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison to say one of nathans knives and one of striders matched up as closely as possible. I chose strider simply because he markets to the same crowd nathan does. Guys who want to use their knife hard and still have the ability to cut well.
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I'm going to say that production for the most part will have better performance due to their investments in research and development, nor saying custom makers don't, I don't see custom makers having the same income to invest in such research.
'Custom' is vague. Some dude making knives out of his garage can call his knives custom made, which it is.
'Custom' is vague. Some dude making knives out of his garage can call his knives custom made, which it is.
Most of the knives i have continued to buy are head and shoulders above factory efforts in taking shockingly sharp edges, and in keeping them, and also in not failing under extreme use.....it is why i buy them, and not far cheaper factory jobs, which i would be happy to buy, if they performed at the levels of the more expensive ones, or even anywhere close.
Both Strider and Keffeler use Peters Heat treat FYI.
Heat treat is about science nothing magic... so with proper equipment and knowledge it's just can't be that much different when it come to metallurgy.
Overall design, geometry and ergonomic is what truly separate custom knife and production.
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Making things is partly about risk management.
Pushing things to the extremes (with grinds and heat treat) in a production setting means that if something goes wrong they might lose anywhere from 500 - 10.000 blades.
Doing the same in a custom (true custom, made one at a time) setting means at worst the maker loses 1 knife and has to start again on that 1 knife.
This enables custom makers to go thinner on grinds and harder on heat treatments.
Offcourse in general the audience buying custom also treats their knives with a little more respect. This means there's less chance of a knife going back for garantee work. Once again enabling the custom maker to go just a little bit further in pushing his craft.
Now overall, there are good and producers of knives on both sides of the isle.
Spyderco tend to go a little harder and a little thinner then most other production companies.
And there are some "custom" makers that deliver blades with overly thick grinds and soft heat treats.
But in general custom made knives tend to perform better than production knives.
Just look at Ankerson's ranking of steels....
These are the current top ranking steels/knives on his list.
Notice the performance difference between the Manix 2 and the Manix 2 with regrind? That CAN be the difference between a custom knife and a production knife, just based on the grind.
Pushing things to the extremes (with grinds and heat treat) in a production setting means that if something goes wrong they might lose anywhere from 500 - 10.000 blades.
Doing the same in a custom (true custom, made one at a time) setting means at worst the maker loses 1 knife and has to start again on that 1 knife.
This enables custom makers to go thinner on grinds and harder on heat treatments.
Offcourse in general the audience buying custom also treats their knives with a little more respect. This means there's less chance of a knife going back for garantee work. Once again enabling the custom maker to go just a little bit further in pushing his craft.
Now overall, there are good and producers of knives on both sides of the isle.
Spyderco tend to go a little harder and a little thinner then most other production companies.
And there are some "custom" makers that deliver blades with overly thick grinds and soft heat treats.
But in general custom made knives tend to perform better than production knives.
Just look at Ankerson's ranking of steels....
These are the current top ranking steels/knives on his list.
Notice the performance difference between the Manix 2 and the Manix 2 with regrind? That CAN be the difference between a custom knife and a production knife, just based on the grind.
Thank you for the insight and I guess that does make sense. I mean one failed production run could be a terrible mess for sure. I had forgot that nathan uses peters however I do believe he kind of tweaked their original ht a little? I also didnt know dan used them at all but thats interesting. I suppose it does cost a lot of money for some of the equipment they would need. I have spoke to a few makers and they for the most part seem to stick to the ht given by the manufacturer of the steel. To me this would negate the benefits of pushing the limits of said steel on that front at least and I find rather curious.