Customer Input and the Art of Custom Knifemaking

stjames

stjames

Sebenzanista
Joined
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Messages
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In the ongoing discussion about what defines a “Custom” knife it has been stated that for a knife to be truly custom made the actual customer has to have some say in the finished product, however minor. This leads to me wonder about how the artistry of knifemaking is affected by this type of input.

While throughout history much art has been of the commissioned nature, from portraits to Operas, I believe that the vast majority of Artist would agree that a totally unfettered expression of their ideas, hampered only by their own skills and limitations, would yield the best results. After all, isn’t that why they were chosen to create the piece? Isn’t it their talent and creativity that you are paying for?

Sometimes when I see someone look at a piece of a mans Heart and Soul forged in metal and hear them say, “I wish it had more belly” or “Why hasn’t he started using my favorite steel?” I wonder if they look at the Mona Lisa and comment “I prefer blondes.” When an artist sets out a goal and achieves it, to whatever degree of success or failure, the results are what he willed them to be. That is his reflection, and any stirring of the waters will just cloud the image.

I thought of this when I walked out of work to go to dinner this evening. Staggering out of the darkness of San Francisco’s War Memorial Opera House and peering at the sunset over the hills, clouds from the earlier storm sweeping towards us, a few of us paused to enjoy the natural spender. One of my fellows had a simple and apt comment; “Nice.”

Our head lighting designer, walking past, looked up at the sky and, without breaking stride, said, “Too much red.”


------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
St James,

As with most things, what makes a custom knife can be debated till your blue in the face. For most of us, this term is defined in the rules of the US Knifemakers Guild and the American Bladesmith Society. Other Guilds such as the South African Knifemakers Guild also have specific guidelines as to what you can and cannot do.

That said, ideas in custom knives or knives in general are ever evolving. Generally it is customers who make suggestions, and almost always in one way or another pay for this creations.

It appears that it is more the methodology changes than does the apperance. Most knive styles are recycled from years gone by. Another dealer told me he was at the Art Museum in New York City. There he viewed a painting by a Dutch Painter, circa 14th century. In this painting one of the men was holding what appeared to be a Loveless Drop Point Hunter. So either it is a forgery or Bob just recycled the blade profile. It doesnt really matter, it's just shows that classic designs never go out of fashion.

Customer input, Maker input, classic designs, new construction techniques, new materials, expanded coverage of knives (internet), more makers than ever, more customers than ever ,more custom knife shows than ever. This cycle of events will continue to push the edge of the envelope farther and faster than ever before.

The one factor that never goes out of style is your gut reaction to a knife. Each of us has different concepts in knives that excite us. Sometimes you can't even explain what it is. However, when we see it, we know it and we want it.

So wether it is your design or input that helps the knife to be created or you are the one who purchases a custom knife from a custom knife maker. Regardles if it is one of a kind or a standard model. Your purchase allows custom knives to continue to evolve, thirve and survive.

Personally, I have been amazed at all the changes that have occured in the 90's. I can't wait to see what the next decade will bring.

Les
 
St. James,
As you know, I am a custom knife maker. I have many knife models. All of which have been developed over time by customer feed back.
I also take customer designed or modified orders. Theses can very greatly. I have cutomers that tell me they want this, this, and this, and this, and are very specific. I also have customers that tell me that they like this, and this, and to do what I want from there.

When you ordered your most recent custom knife from me (being made), you said that you had certain things that had to be. You needed a specific blade lentgh, and overall length. You also wanted a specific handle material. The only argument you gave me on price, was that I maybe wasn't charging you enought '-)
Soon you will see your knife for the first time.

I feel that the way you ordered your knife gives the best of all worlds. You will get the important features to you. You gave me plenty of room to express the design in my way. Your knife will be a combination of your needs, and my artistic design.

That to me, is a "True Custom Knife"


------------------
Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com



[This message has been edited by Lynn Grififth Knives (edited 20 November 1999).]
 
Too Much Red, LOL, but I know what he meant!

When making sheaths, I get the same feelings that I try and let the knife I'm working with dictate the style and art that goes into the sheath, a weird thing I know, but it does make you feel as if a part of you is ending up in the final work, so I almost hate to see some of the sheaths sent out, I enjoy looking at them just a little longer.

And I'm guilty of questioning the steel use of some makers and why they do the things they do, everyone is different which makes the world a special place!

An old quote
`Just remember you are Unique!
just like everyone else!

G2

------------------
My mind is made up,
So don't confuse me with the facts!

www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Cabin/7306/blades.html

Gillett PA
 
Lynn,

You are early in your career. Careful how you word things. So the knife you are working on for St. James is a "true" custom knife. How would you classify your other knives, you know the kind you have made more than one of?

Are these "false" custom knives? Do you use different construction techniques or a different group of tools/machines to make the "True" custom knives?

If a customer asks you to change another makers knife slightly to meet his custom order, is that a True Custom Knife or just a rip off of another maker?

Lynn, I know your working hard to establish yourself, but things you put in print have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass.

Example, I am new to custom knives and buy my first custom knife from you, one of your models (not a "true" custom knife). I might be confused, maybe a little irritated that I did not get what I considered to be a custom knife. If it's not a "true" custom knife, then why did I have to pay so much.

Lynn, you may think I am exagerting, trust me, I am not.

Best of luck to you and St. James.

Les
 
Les,
I see your point. To clear it up. Jame's knife was truely "Customized" to fit his desires. It, same as all of my knives, was made entirely by me. No laser cut, cnc'ed, or premade parts involved. The biggest difference with his knife, as apposed to another that I would make, is that it was made with Jame's specificly requested modifications. I hope that helps to clear things up.

------------------
Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
There is no doubt that some of the greatest works of art in history have been commissioned and influenced by the eventual recipient of the piece (the Sistine Chapel comes to mind…) and I am certainly guilty of the sin of customizing someone else’s design to my own specifications. I agree that it is a wonderful thing to be able to sketch out an idea and have a talented person bring it to life, or to get that little change that makes life just perfect. This is one of the best things about the custom knife field.

One of the others is discovering the ideas of the artist themselves through their work.

I guess I am just tired of the endless debate over definitions and marginal advantages in materials.


------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
Every one has his or her own ideas on what makes a perfect knife for them. I do not object if a customer wishes to change one of my designs to suit themselves. I think of it as personalizing and usually can accomodate the customer. When I cannot accomodate them I explain why and am not offended if they take their work to someone who has the specialized equipment to make the changes.

The customer may not always be right but he pays the bills.


------------------
george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
This is a very interesting topic. I think stjames has made some great points. I have read some of the earlier threads relating to the definition of 'custom' knife. As I understand Les Robertson, he is using the more inclusive definition that does not depend on Any customer input at all, only requiring that the knife be designed and made by the maker. I like to say I collect handmade forged knives. I have never ordered one directly from a maker because of the sometimes extraordinary wait time that one must endure. Sometimes great art is commissioned. I think the greatest art comes from the artists soul when he is free to create whatever form his heart desires.

As someone interested in the Art of knifemaking, who only collects knives I like, it is not at all important for me to specify every detail of a knife's construction. I might do this someday, with a maker whose skills and talents are enormous and fully developed. But I am having no trouble at all finding great examples of Art in magazines, shows, and on the Internet. As George Tichbourne pointed out, everyone has different ideas that guide his or her collecting choices.

I collect mostly fixed blade hunters and boots. Each is different and each is unique. There will never be another knife exactly like one of mine. Almost all of them were handforged. But there are a wide variety of other knifemaking features represented in my knives. Some have damascus or mosaic blades, some are made of differentially tempered tools steels (I have examples of most of the common forged tool steels), some have full tangs, some are mortised, others have outstanding file work, and there is a lot a variety in handle materials (wood, bone, tooth, and antler). Some have tapered tangs, some are distally tapered, and some have both. I don't know if I can define the 'perfect' knife for myself. I will always be looking for something new, something a little different, something a little bigger, or smaller, with a different blade grind, a different blade shape, beautiful damascus or an unusual handle shape or material. Line, form, function, and workmanship are the most important qualities guiding my collecting. I like knives by ABS Mastersmiths, and I like knives by relatively new makers.

I think all of my knives are 'custom' knives. And I didn't have Any input into the design or materials. I just buy what I like. From a strictly grammatical point of view, collectors who have some input into the knife are ordering a 'true' custom knife. But as has been pointed out in this thread, there can be a wide range in the amount of control the customer has. One maker seemed to prefer as much freedom as possible from a 'custom' order, and implied that such a 'truly custom' knife was somehow better than a knife the maker might have made for himself, or just to stretch the boundaries of his usual work. I think knives made with No customer input are better because they the better reflect the intent of the maker appeal to my varied interests in knife aesthetics. I want the Artist to express His ideas, not mine. Our language seems to lack a more appropriate word than 'custom' knife, or the use of the word has become so common place that the restrictive use of the word simply no longer applies. There is also the problem of classifying makers who use sophisticated machinery and produce many seemingly identical pieces. I must also accept these as 'custom' knives. I don't see any point to endlessly debating the definition of the word 'custom'. Everyone will have to make the own judgements about what they like to collect and why. And describing these parameters will probably require more than just the term 'custom'.

Like stjames, I also think there is a possible pitfall in customer specification of the knife. Perhaps the customer will ask the maker to work in materials with which he is not familiar. Perhaps the grind and dimensions of the knife are not typical of the makers other work. Will he be able to approach perfection in his knifemaking when producing something that is not within his normal range of techniques or skills? If you order a 'truly' custom knife and then find you don't like the finished product, what do you do? It's not fair to the maker to ask for your money back. I talked to a 'custom' maker who told me that he didn't want to take a 'custom' order because he would have to charge me three times what he felt his work was worth "off the table". So I collect pieces that I can see and ideally handle before I fork over my money. There is no shortage of knives made by makers I admire, with materials I desire, using the techniques and skills I require.

Paracelsus
I am neither hunter of Man or Beast, only a seeker of Truth, Beauty, and Understanding

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 21 November 1999).]
 
I just never stop learning from you folks. Some of you have covered this ground 100 times, as for me I learn something new in just about every thread.
Paracelsus, I particularly enjoy your posts, since you seem to have cleared a path in the direction I'm looking to go.
I am going to order my first "handmade" knife in Jan. I have been hesitant to call it a Custom, a little unsure of the definition.
I am going to order direct from the maker, not off the table. It's the makers damascus with stag handle, so I know it will be one of a kind. He seems to like a thumb ramp on the back of the guard, I asked if I could get it without? He said no problem. Sounds like that's about as Custom as I can get. My first "true" Custom knife, I really like the sound of that.
 
Paracelsus, considering that we collect knives with completely different construction techniques (I use mostly stock removal method folders) we seem to have a very similar take on what we are looking for in our knives. Very well put.

I just knew you were going to call me on the whole issue, Lynn, as we just talked about handle materials on Friday
wink.gif


And thanks to Les, who should know as well as anyone that there is a wide world of makers, buyers and knives, with room enough for every conceivable desire. Glad too see you are still taking an interest here, it is very welcome and appreciated. All my best wishes to you as well, sir.

And please, everyone, feel free to call me James.


------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
Para and James,

Everyone has brought up excellent points. As James put it, similar thoughts on collecting from several different directions.

Yes I view custom knives as a category. I can also understand the point that a custom knife is one made specifically to a customers specifications. Both categories are valid and correct.

I have designed or had input on more knives than I can remember. Personally, I never made the seperation between the two custom definition's. I just always used the wider classification of custom knife.

Perhaps that is because I have always felt, surely if I came up with it, someone over the last 10,000 years has probably thought of it as well.

Several cusotm knife makers and I have colaborated on multiple "custom" knives. However, if we were to break these and most of the knives we see today into their seperate components, we would find that someone somewere has done that before. Perhaps not in the combination that I came up with. None the less, the base idea's pre-exsisted.

The more research I do into knives, the more Im amazed at how many designs used today were all the rage 300 years ago!

The main thing you do when you buy a custom knife, wether you had input or not. Is provide that knife maker with the inspiration (if not income)to move to the next knife.

One could argue had it not been for Abercrombie and Finch that we might not know who Bob Loveless is.

James, thank you for your kind words. I have been spending less time here. An intersting thing happened when I was removed as the moderator. My business showed a tremendous increase. Perhaps, I was spending (and in some cases wasting) too much time here.

However, I feel threads such as this are of interest to the members of this forum who are custom knife collectors, no matter what definition you use.

Les
 
Here are a few things to consider in regards to looking for custom features in a knife project.
Sometimes seemingly minor changes are not minor in any way. For instance to ask for a specific pattern of damascus for your blade if it is something the knifemaker doesn't already have made up can be a very big thing when considering the time from his day it would take to make it. Or even the time it takes to find and buy a specific material.
I've had customers for (non knife) products
I make ask for a different material and never consider the fact that it takes hours on the phone and correspondence plus the fact that it would have to be bought in small quantity significantly adding to the cost. To ask a knifemaker to make an entirely different style knife than he is currently making with different materials is no little thing.
I have a project for the coming year where I want milk white, first class ivory scales. The knifemakert has that already which is good for both of us. As small a thing as this seems it takes it would take time for him to locate them if he didn't have them and it all adds up more than the average customer realizes. I'm flexible on the pattern of the damascus for the blade because he knows what I have in mind and i know him well enough to use his judgment to use something he has to fit in to the theme of what we're making. If I had to tell him I wanted something specific that he didn't have would be fine but I know what is involved and would have to be prepared to pay for it. Suppose I want a special handle material. Fine that's what custom is all about. The knifemaker has to find it. He has to find a good pair of scales and make it. Hopefully nothing goes wrong and he doesn't have to discard them and make another pair. I'd bet a lot of knifemakers wish their customers had a better idea of the time and effort it goes into making a special project.
 
So when is a custom not a custom?

I have commissioned knives before where the process began with a blank page, and then, through a course of discussions, took shape. Sometimes they start with a material (platinum), sometimes a shape (traditional folder), sometimes a "goal" (something the maker has never done before). So while the knife is purely the maker's physical product, the idea was shaped by both their mind and my own. It is their unfettered vision, and my unfettered vision. It is my goal as the patron to help an artist to create, first by challenging and offering starting points/inspiration, and then by supporting the physical manifestation of the resulting shared vision. Ah, what magnificent results! So personal!

Of course there have been others where I knew what I wanted, and had the maker craft my personal design. Was I reigning in the maker by holding him to my design, or was the resulting work an expression of his artistry within the idiom I had specified? Can an artist "turn it off" and become a manufacturer?

My personal "sticking point" in the custom/handmade discussion is my Sawby C/U folder. It is a "pattern" knife. Sawby produces many. Did it become custom when I requested the wood handle and the stainless damascus blade? How about when Ray Cover Jr. did the scrollwork engraving and gold inlay? Remaining true to my most stringent definition, this is a customized handmade, not a true custom. But damn - holding it is like drinking cognac.

How about a historical repro that a maker was itching to make, but wasn't sure they could find a buyer for? It made me happy to fund the knife. It came from an existing design - was it custom? And to make the waters even muddier, after making mine, the maker liked it so much that it became one of their patterns! So how about now? Is mine a custom?

Angels dancing on the heads of pins, gentlemen...

[This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 22 November 1999).]
 
Brian, that sounds sweet. Being a fan of both Sawby and engraving I'd love to see a picture of it. Do you have anything I can look at.
Tom
 
Thanks Kelly That is nice.
Without getting into the done to death "what makes a custom" issue. Brians post gave me a couple things to think about. One of my current "custom" projects is to have 12 different knifemakers each make a reproduction of an antique bowie in reduced size. The 12 different knifemaker idea doesn't look like it is going to work out but I found a knifemaker that is doing fantastic bowie work and would love to get involved in the project. He already has most of the bowies in the Voyles book patterned out just waiting for the customer. Ron Newton. If you get a chance give his bowies a look. I'll probably end up with him making all of them once we get rolling. Kind of funny when i think of it in the terms of Brians post. I considered it about as custom as a project can get but if I look at in that way there is practicly zero customer input except for "make me one like this 10 inches long" and actually we're just copying a very old knife patterns. :-) Oh well it's still my one of my "custom" projects, I guess, for the next 5 years.

[This message has been edited by TomW (edited 22 November 1999).]
 
Tom.
You can't go wrong with Ron Newton, his work is as good as any and better than most.
As to the custom/not custom thing, what we think is new has been done before, we just don't know where or when. A good example
is the taper tang or drop point, both were around 200+ years ago yet we give credit to
our generation makers for these features. Is that wrong? I think not, they revived something that works. Bill Moran started the modern day damascus knives yet they have been around for hundreds of years.
There is a knife maker under every rock in this neck of the woods, some are so good that the rock even shines, Ron Newton's
rock shines very brightly.

------------------
old pete
 
You're right about Ron Newtons work being good Pete. I'd put his damascus against anybodies. Look at his work on Arizonas page. http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/newtonr.htm I believe the man deserves a lot more attention than he gets. A couple things made me like him more after talking with him at lenth about my project. He gave me the names of other knifemakers that are doing similar work if I wanted to talk to them also before deciding on a knifemaker. That was cool but what impressed me the most was when he showed
me his angel wing knife. It's pretty and there are lots of pretty knives when you spend a couple thousand dollars. Then he showed me pictres of that knife with different materials going all the way down to $250. Looking at the pic. of the $250 knife I had to ask the obvious. A lot of work has to go into that knife for $250 and it's certain he's not making a lot of money on them but his answer was that he wanted everybody that wanted one of his knives to be able to have one. He gets as much or more satisfaction from having somebody that works on a loading dock own one of his knives as the person that owns the comany thet the guy works for. He's definately not in it for the money. Those things that he said to me and the fantastic work that he does made the decision to use him very easy.
 
Tom,
Thanks very much for that link to Ron Newtons work. The knives although they are beautiful, are way out of my price range at this point. However, I would love to see more of his work in the $500 and under range. How can I get in touch with him? I looked him up in Knives '99, no listing. Does he have a web site, or do you have an address or e-mail to reach him? I would appreciate any info.

Thanks,
PhilL
 
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