Cut off burr and microlevel sharpening following bucket stove & me2 technique

[awestib]

This is in response to bucketstove and me2 and their technique of sharpening.

Not that I have never used a microbevel, nor that I have not heard of Cliff Stamp's approach to sharpening. In fact I have a kitchen knife that I reprofiled to a very thin primary grind and the way to sharpen it is literally using alternating edge leading strokes only until sharp. The secondary bevel is so thin that feedback is poor but since it is so thin, it does not really matter. The edge will be virtually burr free this way and the bit of burr that might be there does neither bother cutting performance nor longevity of the edge. The way I sharpen makes stropping a bit awkward.

Anyway I used their approach yesterday on a 5 inch 52100 knife, thin stock to begin with. I established a new 10 dps bevel on a coarse DMT after cleaning the apex on a fine Norton Crystolon (1-2 "cuts"). This did not take too long since this knife had a great geometry already. I did quick forth and back motions for this, but controlled. I did not really check the light reflection but made sure I had produced a burr (a small one) evenly on both sides. Then alternating edge leading strokes only same angle/same stone until burr "free". At this point the edge is pretty sharp already.

Then I went to my DMT extra fine, increased the angle to approx 35-40 dps for a few alternating strokes, very light and short, making sure each apex area is being touched by the stone only briefly. Then down to the desired final angle of about 15 dps., just alternating edge leading strokes until I was satisfied with the apex.

Nice result, shaves arm hair but no wrist hair tree topping. When I (I know that is weird a bit) brush the hair on my belly/chest which is more bundled up in places than anywhere else on my body, it catches some above skin. TB paper cross cut nicely.

This worked well, somewhat expected of course. The high angle (step 3) ensures cutting off burr with little risk of producing a (big) new one. The following only edge leading strokes at the desired final angle produces a nice new, even apex with very little burr risk in short time. Maintenance would be easy with repeated edge leading strokes alternating at the same desired microbevel angle until eventually you have to go back to the 10dsp.

I believe that for final edge refinement a finer and finer stone may still not be able to reduce apex width beyond a certain point, at least not edge leading. The final edge trailing strokes on waterstones for instance may improve that but other than in very experienced hands, the result is a burr too. So what do I do if I wanted a fine, tree topping and hair whittling edge? I believe I would have to utilize a strop for a microconvex apex, a reduced apex width without a burr. I could still go on to strop after this approach but which angle should I use? On a resilient strop I would probably adjust to a bit more acute than the microbevel angle. On a harder strop, balsa for instance, I would dare to try the same angle as the microbevel.

This was a lot of rambling, it all shows that there a many ways to skin a cat. In German we have a saying "Jedem das seine". True here too!
Any comments, experience etc. more than welcome.

 

[me2]

I meant to reply earlier, but stuff happens, so you know how that goes I hope. I generally sharpen with just 2 steps for knives, especially lately. I use a coarse/fine Norton Economy stone. Off that stone I can get a tree topping and occasionally hair whittling edge, though I don't try for it. For those times I want an especially fine/polished edge, I will start with a 220 grit water stone, then 1000 grit, then Spyderco Medium, and Fine. I generally don't strop. When going through all 4 steps, the water stones are the full bevel, while the Spyderco stones (Sharpmaker) are for the micro bevel. The 220 just doesn't make the jump to Medium as well without the 1k in between. After the first time on the 220, I can generally just start with the 1k, unless the edge is very dull or damaged. You can just keep hitting the microbevel with the finer and finer stones. It takes very little time to polish the microbevel, and saves wear on the fine stones. I generally don't do edge trailing strokes specifically. The waterstone steps are more shaping than sharpening. When actually applying the final edge, I only use edge leading strokes, with the exception of fine water stones. I have a 4k that I rarely use, and sometimes I can't do edge leading without digging into the stone. In those cases, I switch to edge trailing, very light, and about 5 passes per side or so. I've overshot this and had to back up a couple steps, but it's better than digging the edge into the stone. I'll admit I much prefer the Spyderco stones for final sharpening over fine water stones. There is something I think I'm missing off the 4k water stone. It seems to work for every one else. I just haven't found a procedure that works as well as the harder ceramics or even the fine side of the Economy stone.

 

[bodog]

Me2, could you shoot me an email. I have a question for you offline.

 

[sodak]

I've gotten to the point of finishing with the DMT tan (EEF) stones. I'm finding it fine enough for almost all of my needs, and it still cuts without polishing. I was having trouble with some ceramics that seemed to be too fine - they polished but weren't cutting, at least they didn't feel like they were cutting. With very fine ceramics I had problems with pushing the burr around instead of cutting it off.

Could easily be poor technique also on my part....

 

[HeavyHanded]

I've gotten to the point of finishing with the DMT tan (EEF) stones. I'm finding it fine enough for almost all of my needs, and it still cuts without polishing. I was having trouble with some ceramics that seemed to be too fine - they polished but weren't cutting, at least they didn't feel like they were cutting. With very fine ceramics I had problems with pushing the burr around instead of cutting it off.

Could easily be poor technique also on my part....

I have similar issues on the fine ceramics on some steel. The abrasive potential isn't as high as the hardness of the stone itself (that's how it seems to me anyway), so you always seem to get some burnishing action mixed in, even with a light touch. I can turn some great edges but, in my hands, it takes more QC time than any other method I commonly use.

I can backhone a microbevel over a fairly coarse finish using some polishing grade waterstones like the Norton 8k. I seem to have much greater control over how much tooth I leave and less QC. Firm pressure on a Washboard likewise cleans up the edge with very little if any increase in angle at the apex and less QC, and I don't have any issues microbeveling on diamond plate or Arkansas.

As Sodak speculates, is probably a lack of technique an my part with the ceramics.

That said, The practice of chopping/abrading off the burr with an increase in angle for a few passes is a very reliable technique that shrinks the burr down with less chance of flipping. Normally I'll use it till just before the burr is totally gone, and nip the last little bit at the original grind angle. Only if the burr is very small to begin with will I just work it at the original angle.

 

[bucketstove]

I believe that for final edge refinement a finer and finer stone may still not be able to reduce apex width beyond a certain point, at least not edge leading. The final edge trailing strokes on waterstones for instance may improve that but other than in very experienced hands, the result is a burr too. So what do I do if I wanted a fine, tree topping and hair whittling edge? I believe I would have to utilize a strop for a microconvex apex, a reduced apex width without a burr. I could still go on to strop after this approach but which angle should I use? On a resilient strop I would probably adjust to a bit more acute than the microbevel angle. On a harder strop, balsa for instance, I would dare to try the same angle as the microbevel.

This is what I want to know
Are you crossing the scratch pattern when microbeveling?
Did you wipe your blade and flush the stones before microbeveling?
Using an angle guide?


At most I've found people say, just keep doing that, and you should get to tree topping
Or strop with compound
Or sharpmaker jig with fine stones

I just haven't done it yet

 

[me2]

Me2, could you shoot me an email. I have a question for you offline.

Email sent. Look from my yahoo account.

 

[awestib]

This is what I want to know ...
At most I've found people say, just keep doing that, and you should get to tree topping
Or strop with compound
Or sharpmaker jig with fine stones

I just haven't done it yet

My problem here is that I can not get any usable feedback on a microbevel. Maybe I have to practice that particular approach a bit more to get there and yes, maybe just repeating edge leading alternating strokes until "it happens to be hair whittling".

 

[bucketstove]

My problem here is that I can not get any usable feedback on a microbevel. Maybe I have to practice that particular approach a bit more to get there and yes, maybe just repeating edge leading alternating strokes until "it happens to be hair whittling".

What do you mean by feedback exactly, noise and/or feel?
Try going visual

For best attempt at control , I raise stone to eye level, put a little paper wedge on the stone, rest a flat side of knife on the wedge to control my angle, then watch where the stone meets the edge to make sure I get the whole length, short strokes and in sections, kinda like this but horizontal Sharpening CPM-S90V freehand. - Michael Christy

But of course 600 grit is max I got for this ... he goes way further and gets hair whittling

 

[HeavyHanded]

My problem here is that I can not get any usable feedback on a microbevel. Maybe I have to practice that particular approach a bit more to get there and yes, maybe just repeating edge leading alternating strokes until "it happens to be hair whittling".

These leading passes on a microbevel created my first hair whittling edges, without a strop. Was able to do this on several finishing hones - hard Arkansas (its a nice one), Translucent Arkansas, and three line Swaty barber's hone, and took a lot of care to produce. I do not have a UF ceramic, just the fine - off that I had to use a loaded strop.

I agree re the amount of feedback, is only evident on the first few passes and then only as a catching sensation as the existing edge scrapes across the stone. The level of feedback is not enough for fine angle control by itself. If more than that is needed, I have to go by muscle memory and experience. Also can drop back to the original angle to recalibrate for a pass or two and then back to the microbevel.

Currently I tend not to use microbevels for more than a few passes and still will strop/backhone at least on plain paper at the original angle. I do not like using more than those few passes due not only to lack of feedback, but also possibility of raising a new burr that will be time consuming to remove - it would defeat the whole purpose of the microbevel as I use them. For me is a way to go from a relatively rough finish to a fine one in the shortest amount of time and still have some tooth. The freehand equivalent of using a coarse grit belt and a quick pass on a finishing wheel.

 

[awestib]

What do you mean by feedback exactly, noise and/or feel?
Try going visual

For best attempt at control , I raise stone to eye level, put a little paper wedge on the stone, rest a flat side of knife on the wedge to control my angle, then watch where the stone meets the edge to make sure I get the whole length, short strokes and in sections, kinda like this but horizontal Sharpening CPM-S90V freehand. - Michael Christy

But of course 600 grit is max I got for this ... he goes way further and gets hair whittling

Thanks for the video Bucketstove, nice one! I think this is similar to how OwE sharpens his knives, feel and visual feedback of where is the edge bevel on the stone.

By feedback I mean that I find it very difficult to tell by feel and sound whether I am flush on the bevel or not. My "normal" sharpening usually creates a larger final edge bevel, large enough to feel/hear where I am. I can play with that a bit, minimal adjustments towards the shoulder for confidence then back to flush bevel etc. That is true for the forth and back motions I do during establishing the bevel as well as during the final alternating edge leading strokes. I also go from heel to tip during finishing strokes and I can tell during the first few millimetres of movement whether I am right on. I then do a single, full stroke at that angle. I basically took that over from my experience on the Spyderco Sharpmaker and transferred that onto a horizontal bench stone.

These leading passes on a microbevel created my first hair whittling edges, without a strop. Was able to do this on several finishing hones - hard Arkansas (its a nice one), Translucent Arkansas, and three line Swaty barber's hone, and took a lot of care to produce. I do not have a UF ceramic, just the fine - off that I had to use a loaded strop.

I agree re the amount of feedback, is only evident on the first few passes and then only as a catching sensation as the existing edge scrapes across the stone. The level of feedback is not enough for fine angle control by itself. If more than that is needed, I have to go by muscle memory and experience. Also can drop back to the original angle to recalibrate for a pass or two and then back to the microbevel.

Currently I tend not to use microbevels for more than a few passes and still will strop/backhone at least on plain paper at the original angle. I do not like using more than those few passes due not only to lack of feedback, but also possibility of raising a new burr that will be time consuming to remove - it would defeat the whole purpose of the microbevel as I use them. For me is a way to go from a relatively rough finish to a fine one in the shortest amount of time and still have some tooth. The freehand equivalent of using a coarse grit belt and a quick pass on a finishing wheel.

Since I can not create a hair whittling edge off the Spyderco Sharpmaker well used diamond rods despite "absolute angle control", I am not much disappointed that I couldn't do it off the (relatively new) DMT green extra fine. I can see an advantage on a finer stone like an Arkansas or maybe a Spyderco UF bench stone. I only have the UF rods so I will try that next. I have always liked the feedback on those ceramic stones but that was during my "regular" sharpening without microbevel but folding the burr.

I believe that if edge leading passes are short enough (and I don't think it has to be in sections, I can use a full sweep edge leading and yet touch every aspect of the apex on the stone for a moment) there is no considerable burr formation as long as the was no burr in the first place. With this technique we are talking about here, the burr removal strokes at 40 dps (when done right) takes likely care of that. So then going back to edge leading only microbevel (when done right) should not create a burr large enough to be of concern. Again I got this experience from my Spyderco Sharpmaker diamond rods.

 

[bodog]

Heavyhanded, shot you an email via your account profile.

 

[bodog]

Awestib, wanna know if you want in on something, shoot me an email via my profile. Yours isn't activated.

 

[chucknduck]

I have also had they same problems that have been described with just pushing the burr back and forth with ceramic stones. After so much frustration the trick I found was mainly just very regular cleaning of the stone. Once they load up even the smallest bit, that damn burr just gets pushed back and forth. Try frequent bar keepers/scotch bite scrubs and at least a water/dish soap - cloth clean down after every knife and that seems to make all the difference. This same thing perplexed me for so long! Hope that helps...

 

[bgentry]

This is all really interesting. Several years ago (maybe 7 or 8 ?) I made the first edges that impressed me, and I did it with a very obvious and pronounced micro-bevel. Started on a coarse stone and finished on a fine(r) stone. I kept doing that for a couple of years and nearly always had really nice sharp edges. Then I decided that I was cheating in some way; primarily because my edges didn't seem to last. ...and I switched over to making edges with no microbevel. At least I wasn't creating one on purpose.

I found that it was much harder for me to make decent edges without making a microbevel. In some cases, I was pretty sure that my angle variation was producing a microbevel anyway and *that* was why my edges were getting sharp. This remained a mystery for me for a while: Why did microbeveled edges get noticeably sharper and better than my normal "single angle edges" ?

Eventually I got to the point where my regular edges were pretty impressive most of the time... but again, I suspected that I was making micro-micro-bevels sometimes. But still, I couldn't always make great edges.

In the last few months of sharpening (very infrequently) I've been favoring this technique that's being described here: Cutting of the burr by raising the edge angle dramatically for 1 or 2 strokes. Then returning to alternating strokes at the regular edge angle. This last part is ostensibly to try to remove any micro-bevel introduced by the cut off step.

I have to say that the results have been pretty fantastic. Much less effort spent trying to deburr, and seemingly much more consistent results. I've even done this on the SharpMaker, and it works well there too. Yesterday I made my first tree topping edge! I used my brand new (to me) Spyderco Ultra Fine bench stone, and I credit that stone with most of the result. But I think this deburring technique is partially responsible too.

Like I said, this is all very interesting.

Brian.

Brian.

 

[HeavyHanded]

This is all really interesting. Several years ago (maybe 7 or 8 ?) I made the first edges that impressed me, and I did it with a very obvious and pronounced micro-bevel. Started on a coarse stone and finished on a fine(r) stone. I kept doing that for a couple of years and nearly always had really nice sharp edges. Then I decided that I was cheating in some way; primarily because my edges didn't seem to last. ...and I switched over to making edges with no microbevel. At least I wasn't creating one on purpose.

I found that it was much harder for me to make decent edges without making a microbevel. In some cases, I was pretty sure that my angle variation was producing a microbevel anyway and *that* was why my edges were getting sharp. This remained a mystery for me for a while: Why did microbeveled edges get noticeably sharper and better than my normal "single angle edges" ?

Eventually I got to the point where my regular edges were pretty impressive most of the time... but again, I suspected that I was making micro-micro-bevels sometimes. But still, I couldn't always make great edges.

In the last few months of sharpening (very infrequently) I've been favoring this technique that's being described here: Cutting of the burr by raising the edge angle dramatically for 1 or 2 strokes. Then returning to alternating strokes at the regular edge angle. This last part is ostensibly to try to remove any micro-bevel introduced by the cut off step.

I have to say that the results have been pretty fantastic. Much less effort spent trying to deburr, and seemingly much more consistent results. I've even done this on the SharpMaker, and it works well there too. Yesterday I made my first tree topping edge! I used my brand new (to me) Spyderco Ultra Fine bench stone, and I credit that stone with most of the result. But I think this deburring technique is partially responsible too.

Like I said, this is all very interesting.

Brian.

Brian.

Brian, have you noticed this to work better/worse on various stone compositions?

For myself it seems to work most reliably on ceramics and finer grades of Arkansas. Next up is backhoning on polishing grade waterstones coming off of a somewhat rougher stone, but I don't think of that as true microbeveling (but cannot readily articulate why - it just doesn't feel the same, or seem to produce the exact same effect). For me, Diamond plates come in last for effect, though it still works well, is not as apparent in my hands.

I suspect a bit of burnishing and not just abrasion. When you look at the amount of pressure on a two or three square mm of bevel surface, and microbevel at an extremely small fraction of that (maybe as small or smaller than 10 microns), even with light pressure it cannot be all abrasive action (maybe). But then some of that will come back to the abrasive surface in question - I suspect this is why the effect is present but not as noticeable on diamond plate.

 

[bgentry]

Brian, have you noticed this to work better/worse on various stone compositions?

My recent successes with this have been on diamond plates. Yesterday's edge was actually shockingly sharp right off of the DMT C. With burr removal in the way we are discussing. I fully deburred after every stone in my progression yesterday, which may have given me the better edge.

I've also had good luck with this on the SharpMaker, so that coincides with your ceramic experience.

I've had very mixed results on waterstones overall. I don't think I've tried elevated passes on the waterstones because I seem to be prone to gouging the stones with higher angles and I really hate doing that.

With sharpening in general, I feel like I haven't done enough full testing of a lot of methods because sharpening is so time consuming to do by hand. This is one of those techniques that seems to give me good results every time, but I haven't validated it in a very scientific way. I hope that makes sense.

Brian.