cutlery steel vs EDC steel?

3D Anvil

3D Anvil

Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
2,540
Just curious why certain steels seem to predominate in the kitchen cutlery world and are virtually nonexistent in the EDC world and v.v.?

For example, many high-end kitchen knives use White #1 or #2 or Blue #1 or #2, but I've never seen an EDC knife made from those steels. On the flip side, many EDC knives use S35VN or M390/20cv, but I haven't seen (production) kitchen knives that use those steels.

On the other hand, a lot of Japanese kitchen knives use AUS8, VG10 and a very few use ZDP-189, so there is crossover.

Maybe it's down to blade thickness, given that kitchen cutlery tends to use much thinner stock? Anyway, if anyone knows....
 
I think the biggest factor is that most kitchen knives don't really need to have super high levels of edge retention, since they're not normally used to cut anything abrasive. Similarly, kitchen knives are used in a setting where there's generally access to sharpening implements, where that's not a given for EDC. A steel with less edge retention is fine as long as you can sharpen it. Spyderco has done knives in Aogami Super Blue and Super Gold. And it's not hard to find production kitchen knives in EDC "super steels," a bunch are made by brands that would be familiar to someone on BF. For example, Bradford makes an M390 chef knife, Bark River does one in 20CV, and TOPS does one in S35VN...

For consumer-grade cutlery, a soft stainless that's easy to sharpen and less likely to chip is the best option. For enthusiasts who are capable of caring for a high-end knife, something with a harder, less tough blade steel will work great.

EDIT: I forgot to mention geography. My understanding is that those Hitachi cutlery steels (White, Blue, etc.) aren't really exported in large quantities, which means you aren't likely to see them on knives made anywhere but Japan (like the aforementioned Spydercos).
 
Last edited:
Yep, there are some exceptions to the rule, but few and far between. I don't buy the idea that edge retention isn't important. High end Japanese kitchen knives are prized for their high hrc, which can come in at 65 or even higher -- certainly higher than s35vn and 20cv. That's getting into K139 and Maxamet territory. The availability issue sounds like it might be on point, though.
 
White, Blue, Super Blue, Yellow, etc etc are all Hitachi Japan steels. They are also all carbon steels. There are not many knifemakers offering carbon steel folders these days. And I think it's safe to say that folders probably constitute the "most" EDCs. So that's the main reason why you don't see them.

Knifemakers generally work with what can be procured at the best price, and for the most part proximity to production has a bearing. S35VN, 20CV, S90V are all Crucibile USA steels, M390 is Bohler Austria. However, Steel companies do have production in various parts of the world, and many steels are exported.
Spyderco in particular has a long and strong relationship with Seki makers and their steel sources resulting in some offerings in steels that you don't see from other US knife companies.

Kitchen knives used to be dominated by the German makers who to this day use Krupp 4116 variants, the major characteristic being that they are extremely rust resistant, and they are hardened to HRC 55-57 levels. These knives typically roll rather than chip, which is why users will often use a honing steel as they work.
Japanese knives, regardless of carbon steel or stanless all tend to to be HRC 58 upwards, with the most common VG10 at 59-60 and the high end powder steels going as high as HRC64 and more. The trend today in Kitchen knives is for the harder longer edge retention steels. While one could correctly argue that in a kitchen environment sharpening equipment is readily available and frequently used, Kitchen knives, especially in proferssional settings do far more cutting on a daily basis than most EDC knives so edge retention is highly prized. There are many US kitchen knifemakers who do work with US produced carbon and stainless steels.

To me this question of steels in Kitchen Knives versus EDCs has never puzzled me. But, what has and continues to puzzle me is why companies that become succesful and famous as an Outdoor/EDC knife company do not do well with their kitchen knife offerings, and likewise companies that are succesful with Kitchen knives are not succesful with their outdoor knife offerings.

Edit: I just realized that KAI, (which owns Shun, Kershaw & ZT) is clearly an exception to my above observation.
 
Last edited:
Also, I believe ease of sharpening is huge in kitchen knives. Plus, home kitchens tend to have idiots visit and put a Shun VG-10 San Mai knife in the dishwasher and destroy it.
 
KenHash said:
To me this question of steels in Kitchen Knives versus EDCs has never puzzled me. But, what has and continues to puzzle me is why companies that become succesful and famous as an Outdoor/EDC knife company do not do well with their kitchen knife offerings, and likewise companies that are succesful with Kitchen knives are not succesful with their outdoor knife offerings.
Click to expand...
I actually have a set of Buck kitchen knives that I probably bought 35 years ago ... and paid <$20 for the set. They are total crap. :D
 
Larrin said:
Hitachi who makes the White and Blue steel also doesn’t export out of Japan much. It is difficult to buy Japanese steel in general.
Click to expand...

True. Even up to maybe 5-6 years ago any knife using VG10 was "Made in Japan" because Takefu didn't export it.
That has changed in recent years. Today Cold Steel has knives made in Taiwan, and Camillus in China both using VG10.
 
My cousin is a classically trained chef and he would be confused by the comment on edge retention.

When you cook as much as he does, having to regularly sharpen knives would be a real point of frustration. I don't recall the brand he buys but he said he bought them partly on the edge retention. Pretty sure they're Japanese blades.
 
I met Cutco Representatives manning a booth at the 2021 Arkansas State Fair. After finding out that their kitchen knives are 440A, I asked them why they were not offering higher grades such as 440C or D2. They replied, their knives are for those who put them in the dishwasher. Apparently, that is their customer, the type of person who is very careful with cleaning, care, and sharpening is the exception, not the rule.

This Japanese cleaver is not that hard, and it is easy to sharpen.

XC4J2cH.jpg


I can bash the heck out of ice with the back of the blade! I am sure it is a cheap stainless and not tempered to a high hardness because that is what the customer wanted. It only cost me $15.00 delivered, so I am very happy with it.

I don't know what steels the Chinese use in these

1KXWtjQ.jpg


it is a little harder than the Chinese cleaver, but not that difficult to sharpen.

Kinmen of Taiwan claims to make their knives from artillery shells, and maybe they did, but I have a hard time believing that artillery shell material is anything but cheap, plain carbon steel. And possibly, not harden-able. I think the show room is there to perpetuate the myth.


Kinmen does make a good cleaver. This is a D11 made from "stainless", and it is not very hard. I believe the hardness is appropriate for a kitchen.

65a5NdH.jpg


This is carbon steel and is easy to sharpen.

HDzx066.jpg


As for EDC always being hard, that is something that is only true for a limited number of knife enthusiasts. The average person buys a cheap knife, such as a Rough Ryder or some Walmart brand, and abuses it. These owners did not even get a screwdriver, they just broke the ends of their blades.

ezZmgpB.jpg



The HVAC guys who installed my AC were carrying razor blade knives. One said "I spend $5.00 and see how long it lasts". Typically, they lose their knives before the things wear out. A bud of mine, who was one of those "Delta Force"types, he wanted throwaway knives. Something that if he lost it, he was not out a lot of money. And, he had had some high hardness knife that he could not sharpen in the field. How do you sharpen some RC 62 knife with this?

2CHtFrQ.jpg
 
Last edited:
26C3 is very similar to Hitachi White, in fact Larrin's dad Hoss, refers to it as Spicy White if I recall correctly. Its available here. Anyhoo, I've built bout a ton and a half of small EDCs out of it and have been personally carrying it for some time. RC is 63 to 64, yet it remains very easy to resharpen. Strop that edge before it dulls and it just keeps going and going. If a guy is into high carbon steels, this stuff works. From fancy to plain:

CNdJC6m.jpg


sZtaysi.jpg


In practical terms I find it very similar to AEB-L run at 62-63. Takes a razor edge and goes a long time with it, yet remaining very easy to resharpen.
 
I suspect that most people, aside from us knife nerds and people who use cutting tools professionally, are content with cutlery that cuts adequately if poorly, and that they can throw in a dishwasher. They probably wouldn't know the difference between a Cutco POS and a fine Japanese kitchen knife. BTW, Ivan Campos, Brazilian cutliero, now specializes in kitchen cutlery.
 
I actually made beer money in college selling Cutco door-to-door. Talking about 40 years ago now. Still have that demo set and still use a few of those knives. This will be heresy here, but their proprietary "triple-D" serration actually holds up. 40 years of fairly heavy use, never sharpened, and still functional. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't buy them again, except for the steak knives, which are possibly the best-cutting steak knives ever.
 
3D Anvil said:
I actually made beer money in college selling Cutco door-to-door. Talking about 40 years ago now. Still have that demo set and still use a few of those knives. This will be heresy here, but their proprietary "triple-D" serration actually holds up. 40 years of fairly heavy use, never sharpened, and still functional. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't buy them again, except for the steak knives, which are possibly the best-cutting steak knives ever.
Click to expand...
That sandwich making spatula thingy of theirs rocks. Got one in a drawer right next to some customs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top