D2 Steel?

Bamboo

Bamboo

Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
2,315
I was at a knife show on Saturday in CT, and talked with a few makers. I had several people praising D2 steel, but I am essentially unfamiliar.

Any input into what D2 is, what makes it so great, and is it really as wonderful as I was hearing?


And one more question ... 52100 steel? Is that the same thing or different? And is it as good? I know all steels are good for something, strength, edge retention, rust resistance, etc ... just wondering about these two in particular.

Many thanks!!

~ bamboo ~
 
D2 holds a nice edge, but its brittle, and not as suitable for big knives, or for any prying.

52100 is sort of like 5160's big brother, with more carbon and some other stuff. It seems like the steel that is held in highest esteem right now. People are doing some incredible things with it. IMHO its better all around than D2. But again, you might be better off with something else for a larger knife.

But I think 52100 and 5160 tie as my favorite steels.
 
this is from suppliersonline.com

D-2
Chemistry Data : [top]


Carbon 1.4 - 1.6
Chromium 11 - 13
Cobalt 1 max
Iron Balance
Manganese 0.6 max
Molybdenum 0.7 - 1.2
Phosphorus 0.03 max
Silicon 0.6 max
Sulphur 0.03 max
Vanadium 1.1 max



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Principal Design Features This alloy is one of the Cold Work, high carbon, high chromium type tool steels. D2 is a deep hardening, highly wear resistant alloy. It hardens upon air cooling so as to have minimum distortion after heat treatment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Applications Used for long run tooling applications where wear resistance is important, such as blanking or forming dies and thread rolling dies.
Added by stevo ~ this is considered an oil hardening alloy.

52100
Chemistry Data : [top]


Carbon 0.98 - 1.1
Chromium 1.3 - 1.6
Iron Balance
Manganese 0.25 - 0.45
Phosphorus 0.025 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.025 max



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Principal Design Features 52100 is a high carbon, chromium containing low alloy steel that is through hardening and noted in particular for use as bearings.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Applications Principal applications are those for bearings in rotating machinery.


stevo
 
What Jeb said above. D2 is used routinely for rotary shear/slitter knives for plastic films, paper, and thin non-ferrous metal foils. Holds an edge fairly well if the slitter pairs are properly ground and set up. D2 doesn't like to be bent.

Noah
 
When I first got the bug to make myself a knife in the early '70s, I didn't have a clue about steel. I found a small supplier in the yellow pages, and went to see him. He was tickled that this kid was going to make a knife from scratch, and spent quite some time talking to me about steel and heat treating. He finally decided, that if he was going to make a knife, he'd use D-2. So that's what I used for quite a while. Worked just fine.
:)
 
The following is forum lore - as usual I don't know what I'm talking about. :p

D2 is supposed to be fairly brittle - i.e. it will shatter without taking much of a bend ( this is relative to other steels). Sees lots of use in small custom knives - Dozier, Busse (in the pre-INFI days). It seems like A2/D2 is a common combination - a maker will use D2 for smaller stuff and A2 for bigger stuff. Many production companies seem to be coming out with D2 blades these days - notably Benchmade, who considers D2 to be non-stainless and coats the blades to inhibit rust.

12% chromium is the official stainless/nonstainless line, so I guess 11-13% would make D2 straddle that divide. I haven't noticed increased rusting or discoloration, though.


52100 is one of the classic non-stainless, high carbon steels. This is probably because of its frequent use in ball bearings, which are easy to scavenge for knife blades.

Ed Fowler is rumored to do magical things with forged 52100, and one of the more bitter fallout from a Cliff Stamp review involved a Pronghorn with subpar performance. Swamp Rat makes most of it's fixed blades out of 52100, and also claims enhanced performance from an undisclosed cryo/heat treatment. (note Swamp Rat lists the steel as "SR101" but Eric - the official spokesperson - described SR101 as super 52100)
 
almost everything has been said...but I'll add a little. Older hand-planes (and higher-quality newer ones) had/have blades made of D2.

The "D" stands for "die steel alloy"

It's said amongst knifemakers that "D2 takes an edge an holds it (for good or bad)". Has a reputation of being very hard on belts, and difficult to sharpen. Diamond hones work fine.

52100 has more carbon & chromium, and less of the other alloys (compared to 5160). The key, it seems, is in the heat-treat. The higher carbon = better hardening, higher chromium = deeper hardening.




Here's what the late Bob Engnath had to say about them (including A2):


5160 is a common spring steel, basically 1060 with one per-cent of chromium added to make it deep hardening. (It may still be selectively drawn with a softer back, if desired.) An excellent steel for swords, or any other blade that will have to take some battering. The choice of Jim Hrisoulas who makes some of the finest working swords in the business. Long blades are best around the mid 50's on the Rockwell scale, while small, working blades can be put into service at a full 60 RC. Forged blades with a well packed edge seem to cut forever! Rough on grinding belts. Jokingly called O-C-S, old chevy spring.

52100 is a ball bearing steel, generally not found in useful grinding sizes, but terrific in edge holding and toughness. 52100 is 5160 with an attitude, more alloy and more carbon that makes it harder and tougher. Like 5160, throws a brilliant yellow spark. Ed Fowler has developed a superior heat treating technique for this steel.

A-2 is an exceptional steel, with fine wear-resisting qualities plus excellent resistance to annealing and warping. Grinding is noticeably harder than 0-1 but not extremely difficult. Sawing is tougher and relates to the five percent of chrome in this steels chemical make up. Really nice to finish with the grinder and very little grain appearing in buffing. Excellent flexibility. Phil Hartsfield get incredible cutting ability out of this steel. Several other of the A series will also make fine blades.

D-2 offers another air hardening tool steel, but with 12% chrome and excellent, if not superb, wear resistance. The resistance also holds true in both sawing and grinding, even while the steel is fully annealed. While using belts up at a faster rate than average, D-2 is not particularly hard to grind with fresh belts. Using old belts causes enough heat to work harden the steel. D-2 anneals at somewhat higher temperature than A-2 and will not take a true, mirror polish. Definitely a steel for the advanced craftsman. It's major drawback is the orange peel appearance of the surface when finished to a high gloss. One knife maker is often quoted as saying that D-2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever. Often found as surplus wood plainer blades. D-4 and D-7 are also good cutlery alloys, but darn hard to find in the right sizes. Air hardening steels can work harden while you're grinding them if you get the stock too hot. This doesn't mean much on the grinder, but when you try to file a guard notch, the file will just slide.
 
Proof is in the using for me. The Saturday before we left for Phoenix on the following Tuesday the Queen Trapper with D-2 blades came in from Cumberland Knives.com in Texas.:cool:
I sharpened it up on my EZElap bench hone and then stropped on my Jeweler's Rouge strop. Razor sharp and has kept its edge very well.
Didn't take long at all to put the edge on since it was already pretty good, just not up to my standard's.;)

But there's razor sharp and SCARY razor sharp. The edge was such that when I'd go to clean something out from under a fingernail I was very careful how I held that slender sharp blade in my hand.
But ever seeking the sharper edge I got to wondering what it would do on my Spyderco Ceramic Fine Grit Whetstone and with minor stropping.
I'm not through with it yet but there is a noticable improvement in the "feel" of the edge. It's probably gonna take a while not so much because the ceramic doesn't cut well but that it's a bit more difficult to finish a convex edge on a stone that fine.
I haven't really tried it out on any cutting tests to try the new edge other than shaving a bit of arm hair but it seems to cut easier with less pressure than it did before.
And that's as it should be going to a much finer polished edge.:D
This is something that I'm just playing around with more than a half ass scientific study.:rolleyes:
Basically I'm just wanting to see if I can get a high alloy blade to "feel" and "be" as sharp as my cuz's very thinly sharpened carbon steel blade pocket knife.:p
It's damned close and methinks with a little more foolin around I'll get there.
Junior doesn't like high chrome alloyed steels, says they go dull in a drawer.
I used to think that all stainless steels did but I've since been proven wrong.:D ;)
Maybe I can prove Junior wrong as well.;)
 
Personally I like D2 in smaller blades, and edge holding wise is probably about the same level as ATS34, S30V, 154CM (my other favourites for small blades) at about 61RC, which is how Bob Dozier does his. Its almost - but not quite - stainless.

I usually pair the smaller knife with a big chopper like a parang or khukuri in plain carbon steel for heavy duty jobs. Each fulfills its optimum function that way :)
 
Here is the easiest way to find out for yourself what it is all about. Order a Queen Country Cousin folder from CKW. They are only $22 so you don't have much to lose if you don't care for it. I don't think that will be the case, though ;)
 
Thanks everyone for the feedback.


Would it be correct to say that D2 may be better suited to folders & small utility knives, but maybe not the best choice for an 8"+ fighter?

and

that 52100 might be a very nice choice for a large fighter / camp knife?


I'm quickly realizing there is quite a bit to learn ...

Thanks again. ~ b
 
I have big bowie made out of D2 not only its scary sharp and vicious, but I dont expect it break or shatter anytime soon. I was testing the blade putting it between two pieces of wood flat and jumping on it - nothing happened. This is satisfactory for me. Blade thicknes is 6 mm. I dont want blade of this thicknes bending or anything else, when it stays rigid, good for me.
Its made by local knifemaker, who likes it most of all and uses 3- step hardening/annealing proces which I do not full understand, but he says that the steel is 8X more tough than normal carbon steel at HRC58.
My blade is HRC60, it chops and cuts very well and to say I actually never need to sharpen it its as it came from him.
It has also interesting crystalic structure seen after grinding, which looks almost dendritic.
Its a working horse. I think that blades over HRC60 are too hard anyway and cannot see any reason to make such as. Finnish knives being reputed as tough and working as design for centuries in harshes conditions are usually HRC58.

Again this is users opinion, I m not knifemaker by trade.
 
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