D2 sucks!

flatgrinder

flatgrinder

Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
2,045
Just bought an AG Russell Deer Hunter in D2, edge profile was pretty poor from the factory. I spent 30 minutes reprofiling it to 10 degrees total with an Edge Pro, created a micro bevel with my Sharpmaker and power stropped it with chromium oxide -and it is toothy as hell.

Is D2 supposed to be like this? It will cut through tons of cardboard -but on a push cut through paper it just wants to tear at it (kind of like mini serrations).

I sharpened both a S30V blade and 440C blade the same way and they glide through paper and cardboard. They both pretty much cut paper with the weight of the blade, I don't even have to try. Don't get me wrong, it's sharp and I don't ever want to accidentally cut myself with it, but D2 just doesn't get as sharp as a scalpel -if I had a microscope, I'd bet the edge was like a mini-saw.

Anyone else notice this with D2?
 
Wow! Ten degrees total seems extreme. I would expect trouble with that kind of profile.
 
"D-2 offers another air hardening tool steel, but with 12% chrome and excellent, if not superb, wear resistance. The resistance also holds true in both sawing and grinding, even while the steel is fully annealed. While using belts up at a faster rate than average, D-2 is not particularly hard to grind with fresh belts. Using old belts causes enough heat to work harden the steel. D-2 anneals at somewhat higher temperature than A-2 and will not take a true, mirror polish. Definitely a steel for the advanced craftsman. It's major drawback is the orange peel appearance of the surface when finished to a high gloss. One knife maker is often quoted as saying that D-2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever."


from: http://www.engnath.com/public/manframe.htm
(emphasis added)
 
I haven't had any trouble with my D2 knives going through paper, but they are never as sharp as my other knives. But my 41MC especially just flew through cardboard. I rather like the steel.
 
rifon2,

I believe that was from AG Russell, who was quoting Bob Dozier. D2 is not a paper-cutting kinda steel. Nor is it Stainless. But it will hold a WORKING edge for a VERY long time if heat treated properly.

flatgrinder,

10 Degrees seems extreme to me as well. I assume you mean 10 degrees inclusive? If so, this is more accute than most kitchen knives used for soft items. In my opinion (and it's just that...) knives shouldn't be scalpel-sharp, because they by definition will be scalpel-brittle and dull/roll their edges just as quickly.

Toothy edges cut better in most real world applications (according to Spyderco Sal).

Cameron23
 
D2 is definitely toothy. It's one of my favorite properties of D2.
 
It's nice to know that I'm not the only one here. The edge is definitely toothy, can shave hair -but didn't really think that it was this noticeable.

I have a Benchmade Griptilian with a tanto blade (440C) and a Spyderco Native (S30V) that have all been reprofiled to 10 degrees total, just wanted to see how these knives perform when sharpened to a really thin edge profile.

They're all excellent slicers and the 440C and S30V work really well and haven't chipped or anything like that. They both run through cardboard with barely any resistance. Whereas the D2 blade always feels like it "sawing" through materials ... even hair.

I guess it works, just surprised at the difference in "feeling" when cutting.

In terms of staying sharp, S30V really is good. 440C takes a surgeon's edge, but doesn't last as long when cutting things like cardboard. However, at that profile resharpening is just 20 clicks on a Sharpmaker.

As said before "D2 takes a crappy edge and holds it forever" -they sure weren't kidding!!
 
Not sure what's causing that to happen. My D2 knives slice newsprint with just the weight of the blade. I've found that the cutting ability is the same as any other steel I sharpen and definately holds it for a long time.
Scott
 
Try putting a 20 deg microbevel on the edge. You've probably got it too thin, I've taken it down too thin, and the edge couldn't hold up. When I put the microbevel on it, not only did I get the push cutting back, but it would hold it for a very long time.
 
I only have one knife in D2 and I must admit to never having used it, mind you its still sharp in the case!!
hitchmo.jpg
 
I have Queen knives in D2 that slice hanging newsprint just fine. I reprofiled to about 20 degrees inclusive and finished with the sharpmaker.
 
I have several knives in D2, and haven't had that much problem. Interesting to note (for me at least), Queen D2 knives seem to take a smoother edge than those I have from several other makers. I can see the difference in the edge under as little as 15x magnification between the queen and others (most notably the Rat-3 which also takes a good cutting edge, but looks toothier under magnification) I wonder if it is a difference in heat treat, or if maybe queen gets their steel from somewhere different than the others and it has a slightly different composition.
 
D2 is one of my favorite steels, I don't have a problem getting a great edge on it. I for see you haveing a problem with the Ats and 440c at that thin of an edge.
 
The D2 in my Queen slipjoints seems to work ok but it never seems as sharp as eith my CM154, VG-10 or M2 blade steels. The VG-10 and M2 feel like they have a very fine grain structure.
 
flatgrinder said:
...on a push cut through paper it just wants to tear at it...
Click to expand...

D2 is one of the more coarse steels both in terms of grain size and carbide aggregates, but it can easily be made to push cut paper, that isn't close to optimal sharpness. You can even push cut newsprint without tearing it with the finish from a 600 DMT stone and the inherent coarseness of D2 isn't even in the same class as a 600 DMT finish.

-Cliff
 
See this thread, in which Cliff Stamp, who otherwise often advocates for thinner edges, opines that a 5 degree per side edge would not work well with D2:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389740

I wonder whether with your 10 degree inclusive edge you've gone so thin that when you're using the Sharpmaker to refine the edge, you're just breaking out carbides, leading to a rough edge.
 
I don't think that D2 performs well at really low angles. All of my D2 knives are sharpened around 30 - 40 degrees total, and I don't have any problems. D2 holds and edge for a long time, but S30V holds a better quality edge for longer.
 
rifon2 said:
"D-2 offers another air hardening tool steel, but with 12% chrome and excellent, if not superb, wear resistance. The resistance also holds true in both sawing and grinding, even while the steel is fully annealed. While using belts up at a faster rate than average, D-2 is not particularly hard to grind with fresh belts. Using old belts causes enough heat to work harden the steel. D-2 anneals at somewhat higher temperature than A-2 and will not take a true, mirror polish. Definitely a steel for the advanced craftsman. It's major drawback is the orange peel appearance of the surface when finished to a high gloss. One knife maker is often quoted as saying that D-2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever."


from: http://www.engnath.com/public/manframe.htm
(emphasis added)
Click to expand...


Cameron23 said:
rifon2,

I believe that was from AG Russell, who was quoting Bob Dozier. D2 is not a paper-cutting kinda steel. Nor is it Stainless. But it will hold a WORKING edge for a VERY long time if heat treated properly.

flatgrinder,

10 Degrees seems extreme to me as well. I assume you mean 10 degrees inclusive? If so, this is more accute than most kitchen knives used for soft items. In my opinion (and it's just that...) knives shouldn't be scalpel-sharp, because they by definition will be scalpel-brittle and dull/roll their edges just as quickly.

Toothy edges cut better in most real world applications (according to Spyderco Sal).

Cameron23
Click to expand...


Sorry Cameron, at my age it is hard to remember what I said this morning, but, Bob Dozier thiniks that D2 holds a GREAT working edge and does so for a really long time; therefore it is VERY unlikely that I would misquote him.

There are other makers who, sadly, do not know how to heat-treat D2 for maximam performance and while I know how Bob heat-treats his blades I would not tell my makers in Japan how that is done. My blades therefore are heat-treated to the very best standards of the steel companies (to achive the hardness I want, within two points) and not to those of Bob Dozier who works to within about a half point.

I agree with flatgrinder that D2 would not be my choice for a scalpal. I would much rather have AUS8 for that, if I am going to get cut I want the blade to be as sharp as it can be. That said, if I were going to cut someone else I think I would be happy to do it with one of Doziers D2 cutters. Yes I know Cliff thinks they are brittle, he and I disagree on how brittle a knife can be and still be a good knife. A. G.
 
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