D2 vs 12C27 on a Budget Bestech?

C

Cosmodragoon

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Jan 1, 2019
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I have a little experience now with "budget" D2 and it's okay. For general EDC, I'd prefer something like 14C28N that's more stainless and easier to maintain. Besides my own observations from personal use, reading up on stuff from the steel nerds here seems to reinforce that choice. I've never owned a knife in 12C27 but it seems to have a good reputation.

I've handled a bunch of current and past pocket knives from Bestech. They seem to do a really nice job on the "budget" end around $50. Since they use both of these steels at that level, it keeps the comparison fair.

So for regular EDC tasks, which would you prefer and why?
 
Since I live in a more humid climate, I tend to stray away from anything not stainless. I like 12C27, as it is easy to maintain -and- has decent edge-holding properties. D2's main claim to fame is its wear resistance, but the alloy does tend to be more brittle when compared to steels like 12C27, 440C, and other steels in that range.

If you oil/coat your blades OR live in a dry environment AND primarily do light-to-medium cutting, D2. I would otherwise suggest 12C27 as it works well and is low-maintenance with good toughness.
 
John_0917 said:
Get a Steel Will in D2, better buy all around.
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Thanks, John. I've handled a few of those including the Cutjack, Modus, and Intrigue. They seemed like nice knives but the colors and patterns weren't my cup of tea. The actions were decent from what I remember. However, I prefer the action on a few of the Bestechs. The Beluga is a great example and one that comes in either of the topic steels here.
 
A lot of testing has been done all the new budget D2 offerings, and it has almost universally yielded very poor results. The consensus seems to be that D2 is simply not conducive to large production heat treatment. It has been a failed experiment, although it is commendable they tried. I think all these companies would be much better off switching to 12c27 or something similar.
 
If they can't do D2 successfully I sure wouldn't trust them with any other steel 12C27 included. They should be able to handle D2 if they can do others. I think many of us set the bar too low with those imports.
 
I've had no issues with Bestech D2. Good edge retention, no chipping, adequate corrosion resistance. All D2 is not equal. Eafengrow and Kubey are pretty inconsistent, with Eafengrow having a lot of D2 testing to come back as other steels.
 
Consistency costs money. Heat treat and materials both. That is going to be paid for by someone. If you get it from a budget import you are lucky. It's best not to count on luck IMO.

The Manly products get their performance with geometry mostly. The steels are certainly nothing special and there are no magic heat treatments. Mine are ergonomic disasters but they sure cut well. :) My Peak in S90V is next to me as I write waiting to process cardboard for recycling day tomorrow. It does well at that. For sure I wouldn't compare them to the imports listed above even when they are listed as having the same steel.

joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Consistency costs money. Heat treat and materials both. That is going to be paid for by someone. If you get it from a budget import you are lucky. It's best not to count on luck IMO...
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Joe, there is a reason I restricted the comparison to Bestech. D2 has gotten popular across a pretty wide price range. For instance, a quick search for D2 folders on BladeHQ shows over 400 hits under $100, around 350 between $100 and $250, and around 375 between $500 and $1000. Manufacturers have noticed that D2 is hot so they use it. How well they use it is a good question. (As dkb45 rightly pointed out, some less honorable manufacturers don't use it but stamp "D2" on the blade anyway!)

As you suggest, quality costs. There might not be much difference between the D2 on a $25 Ganzo and a $40 Steel Will, but higher end manufacturers certainly seem to get a lot more out of it. I don't know that D2 is any more variable than other steels or if we're just seeing arguments about it because it's being used across such a wide range.

Yeah, we're talking about "budget imports" here. We're talking about the same company and the same price range for a fair comparison. It's also worth noting that companies like Bestech, Civivi, Tangram, (etc.) offer a lot of bang for the buck. Personally, I love that I can get this kind of quality at a price where I won't think twice about using it.
 
Cosmodragoon said:
Joe, there is a reason I restricted the comparison to Bestech. D2 has gotten popular across a pretty wide price range. For instance, a quick search for D2 folders on BladeHQ shows over 400 hits under $100, around 350 between $100 and $250, and around 375 between $500 and $1000. Manufacturers have noticed that D2 is hot so they use it. How well they use it is a good question. (As dkb45 rightly pointed out, some less honorable manufacturers don't use it but stamp "D2" on the blade anyway!)

As you suggest, quality costs. There might not be much difference between the D2 on a $25 Ganzo and a $40 Steel Will, but higher end manufacturers certainly seem to get a lot more out of it. I don't know that D2 is any more variable than other steels or if we're just seeing arguments about it because it's being used across such a wide range.

Yeah, we're talking about "budget imports" here. We're talking about the same company and the same price range for a fair comparison. It's also worth noting that companies like Bestech, Civivi, Tangram, (etc.) offer a lot of bang for the buck. Personally, I love that I can get this kind of quality at a price where I won't think twice about using it.
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Chinese d2 do not seem to be as great as its been made out to look. Outpost 76 has tested a bunch too with similar results even for the we knives d2. Not to mention 12c27n and aus 8 do fairly better.

Then factor in bestech m390 and s35vn is done fairly soft. In the 58 range.

I'd say they will all cut just fine but go with the one thats easier to sharpen. As your not gonna get an optimal ht on them. But 12c27n seems the easiest to ht for most companies. D2 not so much. Stick with dozier d2 etc.
 
Cosmodragoon said:
Joe, there is a reason I restricted the comparison to Bestech. D2 has gotten popular across a pretty wide price range. For instance, a quick search for D2 folders on BladeHQ shows over 400 hits under $100, around 350 between $100 and $250, and around 375 between $500 and $1000. Manufacturers have noticed that D2 is hot so they use it. How well they use it is a good question. (As dkb45 rightly pointed out, some less honorable manufacturers don't use it but stamp "D2" on the blade anyway!)

As you suggest, quality costs. There might not be much difference between the D2 on a $25 Ganzo and a $40 Steel Will, but higher end manufacturers certainly seem to get a lot more out of it. I don't know that D2 is any more variable than other steels or if we're just seeing arguments about it because it's being used across such a wide range.

Yeah, we're talking about "budget imports" here. We're talking about the same company and the same price range for a fair comparison. It's also worth noting that companies like Bestech, Civivi, Tangram, (etc.) offer a lot of bang for the buck. Personally, I love that I can get this kind of quality at a price where I won't think twice about using it.
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I'll chime in with some personal experience with D2 from a variety of budget models. Civivi and Steel Will seem to do the best, with an edge to Steel Will (who imports K110 for their budget knives). Ontario does good D2, but runs it a little soft. Bestech and Artisan Cutlery are pretty normal D2, not amazing performance but a bit better than other budget steels, and about equal (but Artisan has a lot of models with much worse grinds). Ganzo D2 has an apparent budget HT, because it's very chippy. Keep it at 600 grit or lower and it seems to do okay, though.

Overall the bigger names seem to do an okay job with D2. Of course Benchmade does the best in my experience, but they are also in a much higher price bracket.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Depends... if the heat treat is good, I'd go with 12C27. My Manly Wasp in 12C27 at 60 HRC performs way beyond my expectations.
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Hey a heads up! If you order it from the american manly site, you can get a manly peak in 12c27 now! One hand open and some new colours too! Figured you may be interested
 
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dkb45 said:
Civivi and Steel Will seem to do the best, with an edge to Steel Will (who imports K110 for their budget knives). Ontario does good D2, but runs it a little soft. Bestech and Artisan Cutlery are pretty normal D2, not amazing performance but a bit better than other budget steels, and about equal (but Artisan has a lot of models with much worse grinds). Ganzo D2 has an apparent budget HT, because it's very chippy. Keep it at 600 grit or lower and it seems to do okay, though.
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Civivi continues to impress in the budget arena. I haven't tried their D2 but their 9Cr18Mov and VG-10 have performed very well for me.

SuperSteel Steve did some cut testing with D2 knives from some of the companies in question here. Mo2 linked the video a few posts up. Curiously, the Ganzo slightly outperformed the Steel Will but both were near the bottom. If I remember correctly, there was a big difference between coated and non-coated versions of the Ontario Rat. There are a lot of variables that could be at work but it might be worth a watch.
 
Assuming the company does the heat treats right on both steels it comes down to what are you using it for and what properties do you want in the knife.
 
dkb45 said:
Steel Will (who imports K110 for their budget knives).
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Are you sure about that? According to their site they only use K110 on one knife costing $250. The D2 they use on the majority of their knives is just called D2. I realize they are similar but of course who wouldn't want Bohler's K110/D2 if given a choice. I have noticed that in the PMI results for D2 for many knives the vanadium and molybdenum content can vary a lot and are usually pretty low. Not sure if that makes a difference, though, as I believe it is the chromium carbides that predominate and the V performs other functions.

https://steelwillknives.com/steelwilladvantages/materials/k110-steel.html

https://steelwillknives.com/steelwilladvantages/materials/d2-steel.html

It seems like 12C27 is more forgiving in terms of factory heat treat conditions than D2 and will perform pretty consistently even at relatively lower hardness than D2. I've done some informal comparisons (cardboard cutting) of 12C27 in a cheap Land knife and D2 from several Chinese brands including Bestech and there really wasn't much of a difference. I have a Bestech in 12C27 as well (Beluga). To be honest they are all OK, but probably nowhere near as good as they could be.
 
D2 definitely seems to be sweeping the budget scene lately. I watched some of the tests of Chinese Budget D2 on Ganzo, Bestech, Steel Will, etc. So far, it looks like a good alternative to 8Cr13Mov at the prices I see it. It might be a good alternative to AUS-8 as well. Sure, it will be a little tougher to sharpen but it should hold a better edge relative to those choices.

My experience with 12C27 is limited. I have a cousin who swears by it. It seems to outperform 8Cr13Mov and AUS-8 while still being fairly easy to sharpen. I do have experience with 14C28N and I'll generally choose that over the Chinese D2.

One thing that might matter for people here is that Bestech has upgraded some of their knives beyond the steel change. Take the Beluga, for instance. The bearings on the older models with 12C27 are caged in what appears to be a bronze washer. The bearings on the new D2 models are caged in what appears to be a teflon washer. I've only had one example of each but having flipped them side by side, the D2 Beluga had noticeably better action and a snappier detent. In fact, the D2 Beluga has one of the nicest actions among knives in its price range.
 
people who say they've never experienced 12c27, perhaps don't realize how prevalent it is:

think about this: it is the default stainless for all of these companies:
morakniv
opinel
helle
eka
laguiole
casstrom

the first 2 I think most of us have had (or should have) ... they are ubiquitous, and all of these are well known for a reason
 
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