Damacus Steel

[PartialSerrations]

Is this steel designed to be used daily for hard cutting chores or would you say it's mostly for looks? Has anybody had any experience dealing with this steel? Does it hold an edge and is it easily resharpened? How does is compare to S30V, 440C, 154cm, etc? I know that damascus blades tend to cost more. Thanks for reading my forum!

IF WAR IS HELL, TAKE A BETTER PITCHFORK THAN THE DEVIL

 

[s0rce]

Most damascus is forged from carbon steel so the main difference from the steels you listed is that it is not stainless. This is usually the case however a company called Damasteel makes a particle metallurgy patterned steel which should compare with RWL-30 and S30V - both modern high carbon particle mettalurgy steels.

 

[Charlie4727]

i am also interested in this, id love to get a damascus folder, i dont care if it aint stainless, i be using it all the time anyway. So how does damascus steel hold up against other steels, or dos that depend on the type of steel it is made from ????

take it easy all

 

[futant]

Damascus steel can be beautiful, no doubt.
Though opinions seem to vary a bit most of the technical breakdowns that I've read on damascus indicate that, for the most part, it falls well-short of the performance properties of our modern steels.
That's just what I've come to "learn" from my searches on the subject (I was wondering the same thing a little while ago) and I'd be more than happy to be set straight by someone who knows better.

 

[Larrin]

The stuff coming from Mike Norris, Devin Thomas, and Damasteel all perform just fine. Saying that they fall well short of modern steels is nonsense. Damascus steel is just steel, it isn't any different than other steels, it just happens to be two of them together. If the two steels are good, then the damascus will be good. The stuff with 302 or nickel in it is exaggerated when it is said it won't cut well. Generally there is only 8-11% nickel or 302 in it, and in my experience, I can't notice any difference in cutting ability. However, if the only thing you're worried about is edge retention in steel, you might be a little dissappointed in damascus, because most of them don't have any vanadium added steels, like S30V. Vanadium adds some edge retention and makes them harder to sharpen, though it isn't as if it adds an incredibly large amount of edge retention.

 

[futant]

There you go, someone who seems to know better.
Good chance that a poor Damascus was used in the tests relating to the article that I read... nonetheless, if I happen to find the site that I'm thinking of I'll post it.
Seems that maybe, from other things that I've come across looking for it, the tests were done on an oldschool "wootz" Damascus or similar, perhaps, to compare its properties to those of modern steels (the myth seems to be that it was almost magical in quality).
As far as the current Damascus steels, seems that most who know agree with Larrin; the process doesn't have any inherent weakness to it, it's all about the steels used.

 

[Jason Cutter]

Yes, I feel that for the most part, damascus is created for cosmetic and artistic purposes. But you only have to see damascus blades being used in cutting competitions (I believe Kevin Cashen is one example) and subjected to Mastersmith ABS testing to know that damascus, when properly made and used is the REAL DEAL. The 'working ability" of damascus is dependent on a couple of factors -

1) The steels used - the steels need to be tool steels, ie.- individually need to be functional knife blade steels. The choice would affect how the steels differentially etch, thus producing the damascene pattern. The use of nickel in some damascus is generally purely for its extreme contrast and is a cosmetic choice - it doesn't harden and is a soft spot in the steel.

2) The skill of the maker - because damascus is composed of multiple layers of different steels welded to each other, damascus is only as strong as each weld. Also, excessive temperatures, unnecessarily prolonged forging etc. when trying to forge damascus can damage the cutting properties of the steels, so skill is crucial...

IMHO, most damascus produces a slightly toothy edge because of the different steels at the edge that wear differently on a microscopic level. This may or may not be a good thing, depending on your preferences. This characteristic also depends on how fine the damascene pattern is. A "straight" steel blade of say RWL34, BG42 may create a finer, consistent edge without the inherent toothiness of damascus, but I suspect that most users will not notice that.

I use a bit of 1075 and L6 damascus made by another maker and I find that this stuff really WORKS. The contrast is very nice, yet you get a blade that uses 2 time-tested steels that are well known for great toughness, edge holding and ease of sharpening.

Damasteel is composed of PMC27 (similar to 440A) and RWL34 (sim. to ATS34) in powder stainless steel form. I've only made and used 2 knives with Damasteel, but in my limited expereince, I find the edge holding superior to any 440C knife I've made or owned.

In regards to skill - most makers who have made a name for themselves creating damascus are doing some INCREDIBLE stuff with excellent quality control. I'd be selective about which beginner I get a damascus knife from, but even many of the new knifemakers are turning out top-notch damascus because the benchmark has been set so high by other makers.

This is MASSIVE TOPIC and I'm hoping to see more wise words from others who have more experience on this matter. Jason.

 

[Larrin]

PMC27 (similar to 440A)

I agree with much of what you said except for this statement, which is completely false. Other than the amount of carbon in the two steels, PMC27 and 440A are not similar at all. PMC27 is a fine-grained steel, and can harden up to 62-63 rockwell. There are many other differences, but these are the most key and obvious.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...would you say it's mostly for looks?

Mostly for looks because it would be hard to argue that it is superior to an optimally picked single steel, and they tend to cost much more.

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

Mostly for looks because it would be hard to argue that it is superior to an optimally picked single steel, and they tend to cost much more.

-Cliff

That's mostly the bottom line. The question has mostly been whether or not it can perform as well as a single steel, not if it's better, and in my opinion, it does perform as well as a single steel. After that though, choose damascus steel if you feel the cost is worth it, and if you like the particular damascus. And if you're worried about rust, make sure you get stainless damascus.

 

[Jason Cutter]

PMC27 and 440A are not similar at all. PMC27 is a fine-grained steel, and can harden up to 62-63 rockwell. There are many other differences, but these are the most key and obvious.

Perhaps I've got the wrong info - I understood that it had similar chemical makeup to 440A, but PMC27, is of course a particullate metallurgy steel, which makes it so, so , so much better as you've pointed out. Jason.

 

[Larrin]

Perhaps I've got the wrong info - I understood that it had similar chemical makeup to 440A, but PMC27, is of course a particullate metallurgy steel, which makes it so, so , so much better as you've pointed out. Jason.

It's actually not just because of the powder metallurgy process. Similar steels (well, nearly identical) 12c27 and AEB-L, are not powder steels, but they have very fine carbides (8 tenths of one micron average), and get just as hard, AEB-L actually a little harder. The powder process isn't improving the steel much, they just need it in powder to be able to make the damasteel. By the way, powder metallurgy steels have a carbide size of 1 to 2 microns, so these particular swedish steels are even finer, this gives them great toughness. They also have very good corrosion resistance, around as good as 440C, maybe better, maybe a little less. The secret is in the very balanced compositions of the two steels.

 

[Zerileous]

Just to chime in, tangental to the subject are damascus laminates like the ZDP that William Henry uses. I would say that sometimes this can be more beauitful, because of the non-liniar transition from the laminate to the core.

This stuff really looks nice in person, and if ZDP is what everyone says it is, then it has supurb edge holding also.