damascus after etch question...

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so trying to grow my skills :) which is why i bug all of you...
So first time making damascus, i alternated 10 layers of 80crv2 and 15n20.
I used ferric chloride mixed 50/50 with distilled water, dipped for 5 minutes. (perhaps overly aggressive)
Neutralized with windex afterwards. hopefully images i linked show.

So the one with the pliers is right after coming out of the etch.

you can barely make it out but you can see the 15n20 coming through in spots. How do I brighten the 15n20 parts without messing with the etch i got on the 80crv2 parts?
and i should point out in normal light, those pics are in a well lit room, light is a little more dim all you see is black
after i sort through this part this will be my first hidden tang knife, first brass guard, etc, etc. I have to say I might not yet be at the level i want to be at, it sure is fun just doing this stuff... :)
 
It’s hard to get a good etch on so few layers.

The heat treatment, final polish before etching, strength of ferric chloride, temperature, etc, will all have an effect on the etch.

Go over the blade with 1200-2500 grit paper, you will probably need to go back in the etch several times until it looks good.

Depending on the staring FC, you need it to be 3-4 parts water to 1 part FC. Room temperature.

Ten layers is not damascus.

Hoss
 
It’s hard to get a good etch on so few layers.

The heat treatment, final polish before etching, strength of ferric chloride, temperature, etc, will all have an effect on the etch.

Go over the blade with 1200-2500 grit paper, you will probably need to go back in the etch several times until it looks good.

Depending on the staring FC, you need it to be 3-4 parts water to 1 part FC. Room temperature.

Ten layers is not damascus.

Hoss
Thx.
Though while I get it's not many layers why is 10 layers not Damascus? I couldn't really do more but will once I get a press this is my first forge welded blade if you prefer ..
I'll dilute my FC more....
 
How do I brighten the 15n20 parts without messing with the etch i got on the 80crv2 parts?
Like Hoss said, it's tough to do this with few layers. As you noticed, when you pull the blade out of the etching solution, the whole blade has black oxides on it. What we want is to polish/sand off the oxides from the 15N20, but not the 80CRV2, so you need to avoid sanding/polishing these areas. The longer/more cycles you etch will eat away the 80CRV2 more than the 15N20, and the easier it is to keep the sandpaper off the 80CRV2.
With really low layers like that, I'd make a sanding stick that you wrap around an end maybe only 1/4"-3/8" wide and use it like a paintbrush/marker instead of the normal hand sanding sticks where you use both hands with the paper in the middle. I can provide pics if this isn't clear.
 
Thx.
Though while I get it's not many layers why is 10 layers not Damascus? I couldn't really do more but will once I get a press this is my first forge welded blade if you prefer ..
I'll dilute my FC more....
Usually when we use the term damascus we are referring to pattern welded steel.

Random pattern damascus requires a lot more layers than some common patterns like ladder, twist, raindrop etc.

10 layers is not enough to form a pattern.

Good job laminating the blade.

You can improve the looks and the performance by increasing the number of layers.

Hoss
 
Usually when we use the term damascus we are referring to pattern welded steel.

Random pattern damascus requires a lot more layers than some common patterns like ladder, twist, raindrop etc.

10 layers is not enough to form a pattern.

Good job laminating the blade.

You can improve the looks and the performance by increasing the number of layers.

Hoss
Got it thx. I'm thinking my main issue was I followed some random guy on YouTube who did 50/50 5 min, and I think he did that more the once. My surprise is just how dark the 15n20 became. Totally get it on random needing more layers. My first rodeo on this so I'm happy with no delams.
I'm thinking I'll go back to the belt grinder and knock this etch off, use weaker solution instead of going gonzo like I did this time making it almost black guess it was to much for the 15n20 to resist. Thanks as always everyone. I am determined to level up at this
 
almost black guess it was to much for the 15n20 to resist.
Again, it's normal to have black oxides o the 15N20, it's what most of us look for to tell us we're getting a good, even etch. The thing is to clean the black oxide off JUST the 15N20, and not the other steel.
Maybe someone needs to invent a sanding eraser?
 
To make more layers, most folks cut and restack it. Start with 10 layers, draw it out to about 3/8" thick, grind the surfaces clean, cut into 5 pieces. Re-stack and weld up into 50 layers. Draw out/cut/restack again and you have 250 layers. Now you have a random billet that you can make a knife from. Damascus patterns show bet in the 200–500-layer range.

When handmaking damascus in the forge, I often use a simpler method I call "Always Red". Jim Batson and I demonstrated it 25 years or so ago at one of Bill Moran's hammer-ins in Fredrick, MD:
1) Metal - Start with a reasonable number of layers to hand weld. 7 works well - 4 layers of 1084 and 3 layers of 15N20 is my go-to stack. For shinier damascus, you reverse those numbers. (If it is your first attempt at damascus, try five layers.)
Cut the metal into even size pieces. I use .25" X1.5 stock and cut 4" long pieces. That stacks to a 1.5X1.75X4" billet which is pretty easy to weld up and draw out by hand.
Another mix that plays well together is O-1 and 1084. This mix makes a less defined and more "antique" looking damascus. It looks great at around 500 layers.

2) Billet - Grind all pieces clean on an 80-120 grit belt. If welding up the billet at a later date, store the pieces in a closed box
When ready to make the billet, wash and dry all the pieces with hot water and dish soap and dry with clean paper towels. Clamp the stack in a vise or C-clamp and weld up the four corners and one pass down the sides at the center. Any welder type will work - Stick, MIG, TIG. It does not need to be pretty, but should be a good weld. When welded up, grind one end clean and weld on an 4" handle of 5/8 to 3/4"" rebar. The short handle makes storing in the kerosene tank easier. The beefy size makes it stay on the billet better in forging. Use good welding techniques and chamfer the handle end to increase weld strength.

3) Flux - I use hydrocarbon fluxing for the "Always Red" method - This keeps oxygen away from the inside layers until they are welded solid. Borax flux is used sparingly later on.
As soon as the billet corners/sides and handle are welded up and it cools off, put the billet in a can of kerosene with a lid. You can make up as many billets as you want and store them in a covered Kero-can until you want to forge weld one or more (an old ammo can works perfect). They can sit there for years with no oxidation or rust. When ready to weld up, take out a billet and let the excess kerosene drain off, then place immediately in the forge. The remainder will burn off quickly and leave a carbon residue to remove oxygen from the inside surfaces to be welded. It makes very good welds this way.

4) Forging - When ready to forge weld the billet by the "Always Red" method, you won't stop for a while, so have everything ready, and have a friend to help and spell you if needed.
Grip the billet by the handle with "V" bit tongs or RR-spike tongs. This gives a nice solid grip and makes welding and turning easier.
The trick to solid forge welds is using less flux and keeping scale from forming on the billet. The major way to do that is to never let the billet get below a nice bright cherry red color. Do short forging heats, brush off the surfaces, and stick it back in the forge often. This also make for easier forging because 2300° metal works much easier under the hammer than 1600° metal. In this method of forge welding and stacking, NEVER let the billet get dark red or black. If you do you will have scale form.
The other thing that causes bad forge welds is rushing things. Steel won't weld well until it is at the right temperature. Hitting it harder or pouring on more flux won't replace the proper temperature in welding by hand.
I start welds with a 1.5#/1Kg hammer. You don't want a heavy hammer to start with.
Note - One thing to always do is wipe off the anvil face each time you finish a heat. Scale and flux on the anvil are a major cause of inclusions.

Heat the billet in the forge (preferably a propane forge) to welding heat, around 2300°F, and let fully soak so it is hot all the way through. Adjust the forge to stay at this temperature. You want a neutral flame to a slightly reducing flame with just a bit of yellow in the dragon's breath. Heat control and making sure the entire billet is at welding heat inside and out assures a perfect weld.

A trick to know when the billet is at welding heat is to take a straightened-out coat hanger wire and poke the billet. Heat the end a bit and stick in the can of borax flux. Stick it in the forge and push/rub on the billet. If it is at welding heat, the coat hanger will stick to it. Give it a twist and pull it off if it sticks. If it doesn't stick, the billet isn't hot enough yet. The billet is ready to set the weld when it looks the right color (white hot just past yellow) and the wire sticks to it.

Take out and quickly brush off quickly with a stiff wire welding brush. Put immediately back for a minute to rebound to white hot and pull out to set the weld. Use medium soft blows and let the metal fuse by light pressure and heat. Do this for about 10-15 seconds (keeping it in the full cherry-red color). Don't let the billet cool down any more than needed. When you pull the billet for the next hammering, give a quick brush off and immediately set the welds again. Repeat the set welds two or three more times, adding more power to your hammer as you get it welded. The sound will change from a duller "thud" to a more solid sound as it welds up. I try to do the first two welds at full white heat and then do the next two at lesser heats down into the yellow range. Warning - If you try to smash the steel together with hard hammer blows you may mush the billet apart and ruin it. Once welded up solid work the billet all around again to make sure. The billet should end up roughly 1.5" square and 4" long. You should not be seeing distinct lines down the sides when fully welded up. At this point you can take a break and let the billet cool off. Once cool, grind all the sides clean and look it over well to make sure it is a solid weld. Drink a bottle of water and give your arm a rest for a while.

Turn down the forge a tad so the billet stays in the yellow-white range for the drawing out stages. You don't want to be hammering hard on a white-hot billet.
Clean up the billet on the grinder or with an angle grinder and put in the forge to heat up. Brush off as it gets to yellow. From here on we will use a little borax flux. I said a little because most new smiths use about 10 times the needed flux. It isn't glue and adding more will not make a bad weld suddenly a good weld. The right heat and forging technique are what makes solid welds.
You can switch to a heavier cross-pein hammer now. I use a 3#/2Kg Hofi hammer for drawing out the billets. No need for a huge 4# or heavier hammer unless you like sore arms.

Re-heat the billet and let soak a bit to assure it is hot all the way to the middle. Take out, brush off, and start drawing it out. When it drops to cherry red, brush off, sprinkle a light dusting of borax, brush off again, and put back to re-heat. Don't try to draw any more than what can be done in these short hot heats. You will be surprised at how fast and easier the billet draws out at the right heat. When ready for the next draw, pull out, brush off, sprinkle a light dusting of borax, brush off again, draw out more. Do this until the billet is 10-12" long, fairly straight and flat. Lightly flux again and put back in the forge. Drop the hot cut in the hardie. When hot again, take out and use the hot cut to cut 3/4 the way through at the center. Quickly brush off the uncut side, sprinkle a light dusting of borax, brush off, and then hinge-fold the bar back on itself, tapping it flat and straight together. Immediately stick back in the forge. DON'T let it cool of any more than necessary. Pull from the forge and repeat setting the weld as needed to get it solidly welded - Usually about three heats. Use flux sparingly along te seam, if at all, and brush away excess flux. When the weld is solid, draw it out as earlier and the repeat folding. You want to do the drawing and folding as a continuous process that never lets the bar get below cherry red. It gets fast as you get the rhythm donw. With a friend helping, you can do it in an hour or two.
The layer count build pretty fast, and six folds give a very nice damascus billet: 7-14-28-56-112-224-528. If you start with five layers: 5-10-20-40-80=160=320
When done with the final fold, draw the billet out to about 1/8" thicker than whatever thickness you need. Grind it clean on all sides ... and you will have a nice bar of damascus. I usually end up with a 16" bar around 1.25" wide and 3/8" thick. I can forge two nice size knives from that.

I have to split this into two posts.......
 
Note - There are many types of fullering tools that are nice when hand drawing or a bar or billet, and for fullering tangs and such. A simple spring fuller made with 1" round stock is a wonderful tool to make. It can be made from a few scrap pieces of steel that are likely in most folks shop already. You need two 3" long pieces of 3/4" to 1" round stock (any type of steel), one piece of hardenable steel for the spring - .25X1X20to24" is good (anything from 4140 to W2 works), and a 4" long piece of square stock mild steel that fits your hardie hole. Grind a flat side about 1/2" wide on each piece of round stock and place them on the ends of the spring pieces. Weld them on solidly with your welder (stick/tig/mig). An alternative method is to drill and tap the rounds and use flush mount flat-head screws through the spring bar. This allows changing the round fuller size. Heat the middle of the spring bar with a torch and bend in a long "U" with a 3" radius so the rounds are about 1" apart. Weld the square stock on the piece about halfway down one side. When dropped in the hardie the fullers will be in the middle of your anvil. Heat the "U" to non-magnetic and quench in oil. Temper by drawing a blue temper on the "U" with a torch. This will fuller out tangs and draw out billets really fast. A similar fuller tool with 1/2" round stock is great for doing ladder pattern damascus. It is simple to make several sizes of round ends with varying open space for drawing out different size billets and other tasks. I made an adjustable fuller that allows changing the open space quickly. I'll do a separate thread on making one soon.

A few notes on safety when forging damascus.
Hot flux can fly like a meteor shower. While sort of cool to watch, it can burn your clothes, burn observers, and set fires to leaves and trash. If it hits bare skin it will instantly cause a deep burn. Have everyone within 20 feet wear safety glasses and protective clothes. Clear the area of flammable materials and have a fire extinguisher and water hose on hand. Th person forging should wear a long heavy leather apron, safety glasses, long cotton pants, long sleeve cotton shirt, and a hat turned backwards, or a welding cap. Children should not be in the area at all.
 
A hard block of wood or micarta with 2000 grit paper wrapped around it will remove the etch from the high spots and leave the recesses dark.
 
Good point Ken.
Twisting a 20-layer billet can make a nice pattern. Even 5 layers will look good.

For a starter twist billet use five pieces of.25X1.25X6". Three 15N20 and two 1084, or the reverse (try them both).

Making twist damascus is a two-man job once you are ready to twist. Get a strong friend who is familiar with forging and hot work. He needs to wear the same protective clothing and gear you do.
You need a strong bench mounted vise, or a pipe vise, and two 10" to 12" pipe wrenches. Twisting horizontally is much easier than vertical twisting. Take each wrench and weld a second handle on the head so it can be twisted with both hands ... this is important for smooth and even twists. You don't actually need both with the handle, but having a spare on hand if one breaks during twisting is really smart. Jaws can be flat or pipe jaws.


To make a twist billet, forge weld the layers as usual. Forge it out into a bar about 1X1" square and 8" long. Forge it into an octagonal bar. Cut off the handle. Forge the last inch flat a bit to fit the vise and wrench. (or one end flat and one end square if using a pipe vise).
Cut off the handle and soak in a bucket of pickle* (see below) for several hours to overnight, wash/scrub well, and dry off. The scale should be all gone. Clean it up on the grinder to make sure there is no trash, folds or scale on the surface.

Set up your twisting gear before heating the billet for twisting. Open the bench/pipe vise to just where the flat end will fit in the end and stick out horizontally. Clamp it down tight and adjust the big pipe wrench so it will grip the other end. Give it a trial twist (nothing will happen) to make sure the vise is solidly mounted to the bench, and everything holds in place. Open the vise and wrench just enough to take the billet out.

Place the billet in the forge and bring it to full welding heat. Let it soak for a few minutes. Take out and put the square end in the vise and clamp down tight. Put the pipe wrench on the other end and start twisting. Twist with even speed and pressure at a reasonably rate. Even is more important than fast. Have your friend count the twists with you (and write them down if you have to stop).
If the twist starts to stiffen up, stop twisting and put the bar back in the forge. Again - quit when it gets stiffer or when it is down to orange. Continuing will likely crack the twist or tear it in half.
Re-heat to welding heat and continue twisting. If an area isn't twisting as much, or a section is overtwisting, have your helper use the other wrench to grip the billet to control the twist where you want it. A spray or drip of water will cool down a place that is twisting too fast. Twist the billet to make about 5 twists per inch of the twist area between the vise and the wrench (30 twists for a 6" starting space). You can get up to 10 twists when you get twisting down to a science.
A trick to help keep the billet hot enough to twist and heat slow areas more is to have your assistant use a welding torch with a rosebud tip to apply heat up and down the billet or where more heat is needed. This can often allow the entire twisting operation in one heat.

When done twisting, normalize the billet, and slow cool. Soak overnight in the pickle bucket. Scrub clean and grind off all the ridges to a reasonably round-ish bar. If you don't you will get cold shuts and cracks in the billet when you forge it out. It can have ripples, but no peaks and valleys.

Once you are happy that all the places that could close up are gone, heat to high forging heat and forge the round into a square, and then into a flat bar. Soak in pickle overnight and clean up on the grinder. You should see the twist when you give it a dip in the FC tank. Use the bar to forge or grind a knife. (Forging out the blade bevels will give more variations in the finished pattern.)

A $50 pipe vise is very useful for holding the end. Get a heavy duty one.

* If you don't have a pickle tank, make one! A 5-gallon plastic drywall bucket and a small tub of P-Down (sodium bisulfate) from the hardware store will last for years. Mix 1 cup per gallon of water. While it is acidic, it isn't like muriatic acid. Use caution and wash off your hands after using it. If you use tongs or such to pull blades and stuff out, wash them off.
When the pickle gets exhausted or discolored, dilute it and pour it down the drain and run some water to wash it down. Make a new batch. Always keep it covered.
Pickling and then scrubbing clean before etching damascus gives a much better etch.
 
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I love how helpful this forum is.
So I'm doing this with the mind set of I'm learning what doesn't work on the way to what I want 😁
I think I figured out what I did wrong I'll post back after I etch again
 
Still wip, so I went back to grinder. Worked it up to 600. Went to hand sand and went up to 2000, was pretty much a mirror or as close as I care to get.

I then mixed up a much weaker ferric mix 1:5 with distilled water.

This is after 5 dips. First 2 dips were only 30 seconds, last 3 1 minute.
Between each dip I neutralized with Windex, rinsed and then worked 2000 grit wet wrapped around a micarta scale. Used acetone before dipping each time and made sure was dry before dipping.

Holy crap this is not like the YouTube videos where the guy dips, pulls it out and it's beautiful right out of the dip.

I am pretty sure I did the HT right, blade is HARD. I did normalize 3x before HT. I don't have a temp probe and my forge is a little hard to regulate. But I watched it on heat like a hawk, tested it with welding magnet and once I hit non magnetic put it back in for 10ish seconds and quenched in park 50 that I first warmed up with some hot steel.

You guys think I should etch more or go to coffee now? I get it's just a random low later count but dang it I want my 15n20 to pop
 
Between each dip I neutralized with Windex, rinsed and then worked 2000 grit wet wrapped around a micarta scale. Used acetone before dipping each time and made sure was dry before dipping.
This is unnecessary.
What a lot of us do is simply use 0000 steel wool (I now use an old toothbrush) to clean of the excess oxides between etches. No need to neutralize this as it's just going right back into the acid. If you are wearing nitrile gloves, you won't get any finger oils on the blade, so the acetone is not needed. I also etch for quite a bit longer, typically do 3 15-30 minute etches (depending on the ambient temps).
I go for enough topography that it's easily to feel with a fingernail.

I want my 15n20 to pop
From the picture, you still need to sand/polish/clean the oxides off the 15N20. Just try to avoid also sanding some off the 80CRV2 a the same time, with is hard to do with low layer counts. Keep your sanding paper tight to your firm sanding backer. Any slack here will allow the paper to hit the lower spots you are trying to avoid.
 
Yes two times , 1 hour, 380 degrees.

Ok I will try etching a bit longer. This started as just a test and has turned into a mission.

Yes still some oxide on 15n20 I just didn't feel like sanding anymore tonight.

What is frustrating to me is not one single Damascus YouTube I've seen does the guy pull out an all black blade and sand the high spots. They typically are like this
At just after 5m he pulls it out of acid and I can see the 15n20 pop right out of the jar.
 
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