Damascus bit in an axe?

M

MattPatches

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Apr 29, 2014
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So i recently talked with john neeman over at autine about the possibility of him putting a damascus bit as the blade of the hunters axe he is making for me. He is up for the challenge and excited to try something new but i am concerned now that the "saw effect" that damascus remains sharp by (one steel wearing faster than the other and making mini serrations) might not be ideal for a striking tool? Anyone have thoughts on this?
 
I would be concerned about the softer steel in the mix wearing away faster and possibly rolling or peening over the harder steel layers. It would be a dull axe faster than one made with a bit of just the hard steel. I don't really see it as a viable option in an axe. That's just my theory, don't know for sure how this would work.
 
It would look cool, but don't think it would be ideal from a performance standpoint. :)
 
I concur with halfaxe and FortyTwoBlades on this. But if this product is primarily to be a novelty that will hang on the wall or only get recreational use, and/or it is designed to showcase forging skills, then go for it.
 
I disagree completely with the idea that it would not work as well. If the steel combination used are both suitable to hardening. For example, 1084 and 15n20. Both harden well and can be tempered to the desired Rockwell hardness. Also that combination is similar enough that one won't be noticeably harder than the other. Also in the forge welding the carbon content migrates and evens out, to a degree, making both steel steels harden to almost exactly the same amount.

Chris
 
I thought that laminated (multiple folded) steel (ie Japanese blades) vastly improved on the molecule orientation of the single source steel and provided vastly superior strength and flex. Presumably Damascus is a similar concept except that it uses different grades of steel which presumably incorporate the desirable hardness and flex properties of each.
In the case of an axe the only real criteria for use and reliability is that the head is not brittle (ie remains relative soft) and that the blade is much harder and tougher. So going to all the trouble of using multiple layers of metal to me is entirely for appearance and not function.
Perhaps someone with more metallurgy experience and knowledge will chime in.
 
I know that from a performance perspective there is no benefit, however with modern steel it can perform just as well. It does add work for the smith that the benefit is purely looks.

The folded steel of the past did improve its function for the materials they had at that time. Now the qualities we desire are designed into the steel.

Chris
 
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If John Neeman thinks he can do , well... he can do it. He knows what steels will work and what will not do well. As Chris said above, there can be two compatible steels chosen that will provide contrasting brights and darks with almost identical heat treat and performance specs. Mr Neeman and his staff will know this as well. By the time a few folds and welds take place the carbon has migrated enough there is no appreciable difference in the way the steels act. Chris and I have seen and witnessed enough steels perform to speak with confidence. I cant imagine anyone going to the effort and cost to stick two steels together and not try to, at the same time, make them perform.
 
Fantastic, i know that the benefit is mostly if not entirely aesthetic, but to be able to appreciate a one off creation of john neeman is something in its own right.
 
That and the fact that it's for you is all the reasons you need. I can't wait to see how it turns out, because you know you will have to show it off here.

Chris
 
The idea that Damascus steel is inferior (and some of it is) is sadly due to the foreign market bringing in blades that are either unhardened or just inferior. This has lead to folks thinking that Damascus is just for the curio cabinet. To get real working/performing blades of Damascus you will have to go to the people who are serious about it and take pride in what they make. These are the experts, the ones who are the research and development in this type of steel. I don't know John Neeman but have watched his videos and can say that I would have confidence in his products. Why? Because I make a lot of the same tools and knives and I make mine in a very similar way. I have tested my work as I am sure he has too.
 
I'm with Chris, should perform well. It's truly all about the heat treat. I'd go with more than 250 layers though...
 
Sounds very much like the 'space race' and 'one upmanship' is at work here rather than anyone striving to produce a useable product. But hey 'money talks and bull#%^t walks'. I'm not a sucker for a $20 Chinese-made Home Depot chopper but neither am I going to get in line to buy a Samurai axe. On the other hand everyone needs to have a hobby and if a $5 flea market yield doesn't cut the mustard and a Damascus 'custom' does then so be it.
 
300Six said:
Sounds very much like the 'space race' and 'one upmanship' is at work here rather than anyone striving to produce a useable product. But hey 'money talks and bull#%^t walks'. I'm not a sucker for a $20 Chinese-made Home Depot chopper but neither am I going to get in line to buy a Samurai axe. On the other hand everyone needs to have a hobby and if a $5 flea market yield doesn't cut the mustard and a Damascus 'custom' does then so be it.
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You do seem to have opinions, not all based on fact though. I don't know why you feel the need to bash on another's tastes or wants. If it doesn't suit your tastes must you voice it?

MattPatches, if you want it and you feel like it's a value, get it and enjoy it. I have not one worry that it would not be entirely functional, as much so as any other Neeman tool.

Chris
 
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Unlike centuries ago, laminated steel does not offer the same improvement over non laminated steel today. The layered bit will work fine but I do not believe, outside of looks, offer any performance gain over the high end, custom, mono steel axes currently available.
 
MattPatches said:
Cajun what makes you say more than 250?
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More Layers = tighter grain.

300, seems most that have posted already have more knowledge of metallurgy than you. Consider your prop to be true...
"Perhaps someone with more metallurgy experience and knowledge will chime in."
 
I don't mean to offer this as a correction Cajun Kamikaze. I just want to explain what I think of when we use the term grain. The steel has an actual grain size within the piece. This looks to the eye like small individual bits all stuck together. If the grain is fine, it looks velvety smooth. If the grain is large, it looks sandy or gritty.

You are likely referring to the layer count as grain, which is understandable, since indeed it looks like wood grain. The higher the layer count, the tighter the grain. I have no problem with that analogy at all. I appreciate your positive input on the thread which MattPatches started. Thank you

There is in fact no perceptible advantage in Damascus over an equal monosteel. However, there is no disadvantage either if the steel is properly welded and heat treated. No one in this thread said that Damascus was superior. But, some think it inferior, which is false. Damascus steel is a viable option to achieve a preferred appearance along with performance. No magic, no high minded marketing claims. I have no dog in the fight but I hate to see misinformation tossed around pertaining to a subject with which I am very familiar.
 
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