Damascus "hardness?"

L

Lavan

Joined
Nov 8, 2000
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I realize that with the mixed nature of the steel, that it would be hard to determine hardness on a Damascus blade.
But, IN GENERAL, does it TEND to run to the soft or hard side of the scale as a user?

As usual, this question is AFTER ordering one from AG Russell with Darryl Meier Damascus that just looked too pretty to leave alone.

Like 52 compared to 58 or so?

Thanks in advance.
:)
 
I did. All they could reply was what was in catalog and how difficult it is to determine a hardness.

So, asking some users here to get some idea.

:)
 
I have a damasteel Lightfoot that Greg tells me is 58. I don't know if that helps.
 
Well, before asking the question I did a search here. Some refs but not really definitive. It may not be. Many in the search liked them and I suppose it makes some sense that a mixture would add some characteristics of one steel to another. Googled Meier and got not too much other than he is supposed to be pretty good.

Still curious though.
 
I read a lot of articles about damascus steel properties. It was pretty much a waste of time. There are no damascus 'cookbooks' like there are for the individual constituent steels.

I came away convinced that there is an indispensable mix of art, technique, trial-and-error, don't-try-that-again and that-steel-is-not-compatible-with-that-steel experience required to produce an artisan in damascus steel knives.

The only 'cookbooks' exist in the notes/minds/memories of artisans who've educated themselves through experience.

If I were to purchase a damascus blade, I think I'd contact an artisan like Dan Fogg or other person of similar reputation and simply trust the maker.
 
Each mix and heat treatment of damascus by one maker is unique compared to another mix and heat treatment by another maker. Practically speaking, saying "damascus" tells us no more than saying "steel". There are too many variables for that designation alone to be meaningful.

Darryl Meier has an excellent reputation. I am sure his damascus will be closer to 58 than 52.
 
When using our AEB-L/302 or O1/nickel damascus, we heat treat it to 60-61; however, due to the cross reading of the soft layers, it can come out anywhere from 48-56 Rc. The AEB-L is at 60-61, but the 302 is going to be soft like it always is.

When using a double high carbon mix like 1084/15N20, O1/L6, O1/15N20, AEB-L/ATS-34, D2/154CM, 3V/154CM, etc. We get a cross reading of 58-62 Rc depending on the hardness of the two materials.

Edit: The question is more what the maker is heat treating it to.
 
Larrin said:
When using our AEB-L/302 or O1/nickel damascus, we heat treat it to 60-61; however, due to the cross reading of the soft layers, it can come out anywhere from 48-56 Rc.
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That's really interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be able to read it down to that fine a point.

What would the hardness be in effective use, though? Would it work as if it were the harder of the two?
 
Rockwell hardness readings are actually quite a gross measurement of hardness compared to edge behvior which deforms/fractures on a much smaller scale. It will behave as the most weakest/brittle state dictates. The blade as a whole will draw strength from the harder regions and ducitlity from the softer ones and thus be inbetween both in terms of strength/toughness.

Note all steels in general are of similar "layered" (using the term loosely) composition with regions of very soft austenite, very hard tempered martensite, bainite/pearlite, and hard primary carbides and very small secondary carbides. On the edge these individual states will all fail uniquely to their specific properties. The softer states deforms, the carbides tear out, untempered martensite fractures, which is why edges fail in a very random manner and are full of deformation and fracture at the same time.

gud4u said:
I read a lot of articles about damascus steel properties. It was pretty much a waste of time. There are no damascus 'cookbooks' like there are for the individual constituent steels.
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This isn't as much about damascus as it is about knife makers. It isn't like knife makers in general are very specific about heat treating. The more detail you give the easier it is to just go to a materials text and find out just how the knife should behave and this isn't very conductive to hype. Read Cashen's commentary on steels and note the two descriptions he gives on heat treating and see which one is more common.

We need more makers like Cashen, Wilson, Thomas, etc. who will say exactly how they are heat treating the steels. Now all we need are micro-graphs of the structure after hardening and the full relevant materials data from the manufacturers.

-Cliff
 
Peregrin said:
I have a damasteel Lightfoot that Greg tells me is 58. I don't know if that helps.
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You need to understand that Damasteel is NOT layered damascus it is a powder metal that has the pattern put in when the billet is spayed up.

when damascus is made there is always some carbon transfer and that means: when you heat treat for the higher carbon steel you will not get the exact results you expect. Yoou have to trust your steelmaker. I have worked with several and the results have been great. all the best,
 
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